Click to play videoKaran Thapar:Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. Have the killings in Nithari dealt a devastating blow to the Mulayam Singh Government in Uttar Pradesh? That's the key issue I shall discuss today in an exclusive interview with the General Secretary of the Samajwadi Party, Rajya Sabha MP Amar Singh.
Mr Amar Singh, let me start with a simple question. After Nithari, how embarrassed are you by the state of law and order in Uttar Pradesh?
Amar Singh: I am not embarrassed at all about the law-and-order situation. Because Nithari is not a law-and-order problem. But I am embarrassed and ashamed as a human being. How can anyone do such heinous crime?
Even in the latest CBI interrogation, the guy has said that he is missing children, their flesh, as reported in newspapers. And the local MLA and MP of Nithari happens to be from the Bharatiya Janata Party. There was no alarm bell. Otherwise, it's very difficult to take cognizance of bedroom activities of people.
Karan Thapar:I want to pick up on two things you said. You say you are not embarrassed by law and order, and secondly you said had there been an alarm bell, you would have taken cognizance of it. Let's first start with the fact that you are not embarrassed by law and order.
Thirty-eight children missing, presumed dead, over 30 months and only 19 cases registered. All because the UP police, who come under your government, refuse to take the matter seriously. How can you not be embarrassed by the failure of your own police force?
Amar Singh: You are absolutely right. But it is the same police force, which is being lampooned and lambasted, they have sorted it out, they have found the real culprit and the guilty. But this is no breaking news for newspapers. So one set of police officers have done a good job. And we have not hidden it considering that this is the election year and it should be kept under the carpet. We exposed it. It was not exposed by you or your tribe.
Karan Thapar: You exposed it in the end, after 31 months. And you said that there were no alarm bells. In fact, there were. As far back as August 2005, when only six children were missing, a report filed by the National Commission of Women indicated that first of all the UP police were not responding adequately and taking the missing children seriously, and secondly, they were harassing the parents. It was the first alarm in August 2005 and you completely ignored it.
Amar Singh: No. First of all it's not me. The police ignored it. I accept that. That is why we have put this kind of crime under the list of heinous crimes. 45,000 children have been missing in the country as on date.
The capital of missing children in the country is Mumbai, according to the Times of India. So many more Nitharis may have happened there. But that doesn't mean I am justifying it. I am ashamed.
Karan Thapar:Also one other thing. 45,000 children have been disappearing or being killed in India is a terrible story.
Amar Singh: Only in Mumbai.
Karan Thapar: But it's no consolation for Nithari. It doesn't improve the police performance in Nithari. So, let's come back to the police because I think the police in Nithari concern people. You accepted a moment ago that they had ignored the report filed in August 2005 by the National Commission for Women.
Amar Singh: No, no. There are some lacunae in the law. It needs to be changed.
Because the reports of missing children were being registered, but it was not deemed as a crime. Because, unless it is a specific case of kidnapping and murder...
Karan Thapar: But you see, it was just six children in August 2005, eight months later the tally of people missing had risen to 12. And at that point of time, parents were reporting that the police were refusing to register FIRs.
Amar Singh: Karan, my humble submission is, it's a failure of the system, I agree. The guilty policemen have been taken to task. We have given a compensation of Rs 5 lakh for each victim, but we do feel that it's no compensation to human life. I am also a father of children.
Karan Thapar: Let's come back to the system. You say it's a failure of the system. I put it to you it's a failure not just of the system, but specifically a failure of the UP police. Let me quote to you two things. First of all, the report of the Ministry of Women and Child Development.
Referring to a period in the middle of 2006, "it says the police were highly uncooperative and even abusive to the victims' families. The victims' families were chided for drawing unfavourable police attention to the village. Far from being helpful and cooperative, they were attacking the victims' families." That was the response of the police.
Amar Singh: Let me tell you, Karan, my only humble submission is that on the New Year's Day in Mumbai, in the presence of thousands of people, a lady is disrobed. A policeman rapes a girl in the police station. And at the same time, the Supreme Court comes out with a diktat that not even a sub-inspector can be transferred.
Karan Thapar: You are right in saying that police commit atrocities all over the country. But that is no consolation to the victims of Nithari, also that doesn't absolve the UP police of inaction and inaptitude. Let's come back to UP, because it's important.
Amar Singh: If you have come with the mindset that you will discuss only one incident, I am saying it's a gruesome incident. I am very ashamed that it happened in our state. I agree with all that.
Karan Thapar: Can you go one-step further? Can you accept that if the police had taken the incidents seriously from August 2005, if the police had filed FIRs when they were requested to do so by the parents, and the police had investigated properly, you would have saved the lives of some children who died?
As a result, today you have almost 40 brutal deaths, many of which could have been avoided. Many young children could have been saved. Can you accept that?
Amar Singh: Who can deny that? The truth, howsoever bitter it is, has got to be accepted. Narendra Modi may not accept that he is responsible for killing lot of innocent people because they happened to be Muslims.
Karan Thapar: But Amar Singh accepts that police are responsible for permitting children to be killed, who could have been saved?
Amar Singh: Not the entire police force.
Karan Thapar: Some people?
Amar Singh: A section of the police force.
Karan Thapar: A section of the police force in Noida, you accept that?
Amar Singh: I accept that.
Karan Thapar:All right. Let me than move on. I have talked about how the police mishandled through utter inaptitude in the lead up to the killings being discovered. Let's now look at how they responded when the killings themselves were discovered.
To begin with, they hired labourers to use their bare hands to dig up bones and body parts, thus damaging or destroying forensic evidence. That is inexcusable.
Amar Singh: See the matter is being looked after by the CBI.
Karan Thapar: Now. I am talking about earlier.
Amar Singh: Not now. The moment the demand was raised... We have got nothing to hide. It is our police force that found out this case and they identified the criminals.
Karan Thapar: Quite right. There is no doubt they found the case out after they had found out about Payal. As an aside, let me point out, even on the Payal case, for five months the police refused to register an FIR that she was missing.
They only did so when her father, Nandlal, went to court and the court forced the police. That's another example of how badly they handled it.
Let's keep Payal aside, let's talk about what the police did after the killings were discovered. First of all, they dug up the evidence using bare hands, hiring labourers and as a result, destroying evidence. Can you accept that was badly done?
Amar Singh: See, I don't have the details how they conducted it. But one thing I will commit as a responsible political worker of the ruling party that guilty will not be spared, howsoever high and mighty they may be.
Karan Thapar:Including police officers?
Amar Singh: Including police officers.
Karan Thapar: So, will you carry out a thorough investigation on how the police handled this matter?
Amar Singh: Of course.
Karan Thapar: Both, how they handled it before the killings were discovered, when they were avoiding registering FIRs, and afterwards?
Amar Singh: I am fully agreed with you that nobody should be spared. But my only thing is politicisation of this entire issue is wrong.
Karan Thapar:I agree with you. I am not politicising, I am trying to establish the truth and your opposition.
Amar Singh: I am using your forum for a noble message. I am not attacking anybody. Whether it is Nithari; where it is Gurgaon serial killings, where for Rs 100, 28 people were killed; or it is Mukhtsar where the same kind of crime was discovered in the premises of a Congress leader; or it is the Hyderabad skeletons...
Karan Thapar: They are all equally bad, I grant it. But Mr Amar Singh, Nithari is on the front-pages and the people of UP want to hear Amar Singh explain what happened, they want to hear Amar Singh acknowledge that faults were made. I think you owe it to the people of UP that today we don't talk about Mukhtsar and Gurgaon, let's concentrate on Nithari. Because it's a major tragedy, you accept it.
Amar Singh: No, no. My thing is I am going to move the Supreme Court. Even at the Delhi Trade Fair, 400 children went missing. Do you know that?
Karan Thapar: I understand. But Mr Amar Singh, let's not deflect to the other things.
Amar Singh: No, I am not deflecting.
Karan Thapar: Let's stick to Nithari.
Amar Singh: I won't. It is very important for me. It may be important for honourable Sonia Gandhi to miss the life of only the Nithari children. But for me as an Indian, Nithari has shed new light on the missing children across the country.
Karan Thapar: You know what people listening to this interview will say? They will say he is deliberately deflecting because Nithari is so embarrassing that he can't address Nithari on its own. So, he is deflecting, he is avoiding, he is trying to circumvent it.
Amar Singh: No, I am not deflecting.
Karan Thapar: Then let's come back to Nithari. You are an honourable politician. I know you want to address the concerns of the people of UP.
Amar Singh: No, you are an honourable journalist, Mr Karan Thapar. You don't concentrate on the issue in focus. I have said that I am embarrassed. I have said I am ashamed. At the same time I am saying Nithari has thrown light on an aspect that children are being harassed, killed, kidnapped, not only in Nithari. In Nithari, we have found it out ...
Karan Thapar: I have given you a chance to say that children are being mistreated, kidnapped and killed all over India. That's granted. Now, let's come back to Nithari, because it's topical, and perhaps because it is one of the worst crime that's being committed in our time.
Amar Singh: You think Mukhtsar is not topical? You think Gurgaon is not topical? You think Mumbai is not topical?
Karan Thapar: Mr Amar Singh, are you deliberately avoiding talk about Nithari? Because that's the impression you are giving people. Are you scared that Nithari is so bad that your government can't face up to the truth?
Amar Singh: Not only Nithari is bad. But you cannot gag me, Mr Thapar. It seems you have got an agenda for Nithari only. I am saying, I am ashamed for Nithari. But in other Congress-ruled states, where many Nitharis are happening, they should also be equally ashamed. There should be CBI enquiries all over.
Karan Thapar: You have made this point three times. I have accepted it. Now, let me come back and point out to you the manner in which the UP Government has handled it. Your minister for PWD, Mr Shivpal Yadav, who also is the brother of the Chief Minister, publicly said that Nithari, where probably 40 children were brutally killed, was a chhoti moti baat.
He then went on to praise the Noida police. You have just criticised them. He praised them. Do you accept that was the wrong response? It was rubbing salt into people's wounds.
Amar Singh: It was bad articulation. And only one segment of the statement was broadcast and rightfully so. He should have been careful. But let me tell you, he didn't mean it. I am being very frank.
Karan Thapar: I didn't mean it, but he said it.
Amar Singh: No. The entire reference has not been shown. He said what I am saying. I am saying it is happening all over the country.
Karan Thapar: But you agree it was bad articulation?
Amar Singh: It was a bad articulation and it was selective when it was shown.
Karan Thapar: But was he wrong in describing it as a chhoti-moti baat?
Amar Singh: No, it's not a chhoti-moti baat. It was bad articulation, at best I would say.
Karan Thapar:Go further. Was it wrong to call it a chhoti-moti baat, to try and dismiss it as something small and insignificant?
Amar Singh: No. The fact is he didn't dismiss it.
Karan Thapar:Was the phrasechhoti-moti wrong?
Amar Singh: No, I don't think he meant that.
Karan Thapar: Are you in a sense, therefore, not just correcting what he said, you are almost apologising for the fact he gave the wrong impressing to people?
Amar Singh: I am not apologising. I am simply saying that he is not media-savvy and his entire context was not shown. And media is well within its right to pick and choose whatever they found more newsy.
Karan Thapar:All right. One other quick question before I leave Nithari. Three weeks have passed and even until today, the Chief Minister has not gone to Nithari.
Does Mr Mulayam Singh Yadav not feel a need to be of some comfort to parents who have lost their children, to reassure them that justice is being done and comfort them that police have mishandled it but we will now handle it properly? Has he not felt the need to reassure them personally?
Amar Singh: This is very disgusting jab. My going there...
Karan Thapar: But you are not the Chief Minister?
Amar Singh: I may not be the Chief Minister...
Karan Thapar:Should not the Chief Minister go?
Amar Singh: In Assam, where five-year-old children are killed...
Karan Thapar: Don't talk about Assam, we are talking about UP. His minister gave the impression that it was chhoti moti, that minister happens to be his brother. Should he not have gone to Nithari and said 'I am coming to personally reassure you'?
Amar Singh: Let me tell you. On behalf of the Chief Minister, I went there. I gave them residential plot, Rs 5 lakh each, job and they are happy.
Karan Thapar: Why could not the Chief Minister go?
Amar Singh: The Chief Minister could not go because there could have been law-and-order problem.
Karan Thapar:A law-and-order problem?
Amar Singh: Yes, of course.
Karan Thapar: He is more worried about his own life then the lives of the young children?
Amar Singh: He is not worried about his life. He is worried that supposed if he would have gone there, the BJP and the Congress would have created some problem.
Karan Thapar: So face up to it. They create some problem, face up to it. You are Chief Minister.
Amar Singh: No, no. We are more concerned about the people there. The administration should look after them after this tragedy.
Karan Thapar: You know what the press is saying? The press is saying he is scared of what they call the Noida jinx. He is scared that if he goes to Noida, he will lose the Chief Ministership. That's why he didn't go.
Amar Singh: Press is free to say anything. Press is determining my private life: where do I stay, where do I live, when I will eat, when I will sing.
Karan Thapar: Is the press right that Mulayam Singh Yadav is more scared of superstition, then he cares about doing the right thing for the parents who have lost their children?
Amar Singh: Absolutely wrong. My going there as a representative of the Chief Minister has satisfied the Nithari people. They are more than happy.
Karan Thapar: How do you know? You mean there is no demand in Nithari for the Chief Minister to come? If that is the case, then the Chief Minister is irrelevant, they don't want him, they don't need him. Are you really saying that?
Amar Singh: Well, don't put words in my mouth.
Karan Thapar:I am only interpreting what you are saying?
Amar Singh: You are free to interpret, because you are media. I can't fight with you. Go ahead. But I will simply say that as a representative of the Chief Minister, I went there and I distributed residential plots, I gave Rs 5 lakh compensation, I promised them jobs and I am giving that.
Karan Thapar: So interesting. The audience listening to you will say Amar Singh says, "I went, I did, I gave', but the Chief Minister never went. The Chief Minister didn't think, the Chief Minister didn't give. In fact, the impression the Chief Minister has given is that he doesn't care about Nithari.
Amar Singh: Please, absolutely not. You media is obsessed with what they think and do. I said I went there as a representative of the Chief Minister.
Karan Thapar:It quite clear from your entire response in this interview that you believe that the media have been unfair, that you believe they have been picking and targeting the Samajwadi Party. Why do you think the media have been wrong in their coverage of Nithari?
Amar Singh: First let me answer why Mulayam Singh didn't go. Nobody in the media is asking that there is an ULFA activist in the Congress ministry and in Dibrugarh and Tinsukia areas, five-year-old boy and a pregnant lady have been killed because they are Hindi-speaking people. Soniaji didn't go there.
In Mukhtsar, skeletons of little children were found in a Congress MP's premise and rice mill and he alleged that a rival group headed by Amrinder Singh is responsible for this. Not only this, the Pander guy happens to be married to the nice of former Congress Chief Minister Gill and it is also an established fact that he is a very close friend of the sitting Congress MP from Jalandhar. But the media is not highlighting all these things.
Karan Thapar: You are saying that media is being selective, they are pointing out the worst of Samajwadi Party and they are covering up the worst of the Congress?
Amar Singh: Well, I am not saying. They might not be liking my face or Mulayam Singh's face.
Karan Thapar: Why has the media turned against you? Why has the media turned against Mulayam Singh. Because that's what you are suggesting. Why do you think that's happened?
Amar Singh: I think the chemistry is not gelling. Or our media management is poor or we are not communicable.
Karan Thapar: Do you accept your media management is poor?
Amar Singh:I accept. Had it not been poor, Karan, then they would have talked about Mukhtsar, they would have talked about Gurgaon, which is equally important. 28 people are killed for Rs 5, Rs 10.
Karan Thapar: Can I put to you one reason why your media management is poor? Because the most obvious thing the Chief Minister should have done was to go and show sympathy, to go and show concern, which he didn't do.
Had he done it, the media might well have been more supportive and understanding. Don't you think the fault lies with you rather than the media?
Amar Singh: No. I don't think so, Karan. Media is divided into camps, unfortunately. I am not alleging, this is my experience. And they are guided more by their likes and dislikes.
That is why every psychologists and media, including you, during last election had predicted that Samajwadi Party is finished. And you were surprised when we got more number of seats.
Karan Thapar: You are right that everyone was surprised by the performance of the Samajwadi Party in the last election. Let me end by putting to you the real concern. What Nithari shows is that there is no justice for the poor in Uttar Pradesh.
The children go missing and are killed and there is no investigation. If there is an investigation, it's shoddy. If a heinous and terrible crime is found, it's dismissed as a chhoti-moti baat. And at the end of the day, the Chief Minister couldn't care less.
Amar Singh: Why don't you talk about the local BJP MP and MLA?
Karan Thapar: Let's talk about Nithari.
Amar Singh: No, in Nithari only. The local MP from Nithari is from the BJP and a former Union Minister. The local MLA from Nithari is a BJP MLA. Show me a single instance of their concern, please.
Karan Thapar: You know what your audience is going to say? The audience is going to say that all that Amar Singh is proving is that all politicians are equally unconcerned about the poor. They use the poor, but when the poor suffer, their children die, they turn their backs on them.
Amar Singh: No, I am not saying that. I am saying collectively we should tackle this menace. We should bring in some change, we should stop blaming each other. We should stop criticising whether it is Nithari, or Mukhtsar.
Karan Thapar: Let's hope that actually happens. Amar Singh, thank you for agreeing to talk to us.
Amar Singh: Thank you.
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