No apology for Ramdev eviction: Pawan Bansal

Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. How does the government respond to the widespread criticism of its handling of Baba Ramdev. That is the key issue I should explore today with the Parliamentary Affairs Minister and someone who is the key interlocutor with the Baba, Mr Pawan Bansal.

Mr Bansal, practically everybody thinks that handling of Baba Ramdev was indefensible and inexplicable. Some people even called it madness. Can you accept that you have disillusioned and annoyed a lot of people?

Pawan Kumar Bansal Well, I cannot agree with the feeling that may have taken over the minds of some of the people. You have to look from the government's point of view which is called upon, firstly to follow the principles of democracy where discussion is the essence of democracy and thereby, it was the responsibility of the government and the duty of the government to talk to anyone who raises any certain impotencies and thereafter, when some sort of agreement took place between the government and Baba Ramdev and when we found things were getting out of hands, he was not sticking to what he has said, I remember very vividly he had said, "I will use that opportunity to thank the government to the response the government has given," so the government had to take that action.

Karan Thapar: So when I turned around and point out that hundreds of millions are disillusioned and angry, what do you have to say to those people in India?

Pawan Kumar Bansal I don't think that is so. After Baba's post-Ramlila conduct in Haridwar, I came across large number of people during my walks there. I mean those were only hundreds not thousands and million people, but you can have a fairly good idea as to how people are disenchanted with Baba Ramdev, not with the government.

Karan Thapar: You mean there is nobody disenchanted with the government?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: There maybe some people. He has some ardent followers also. They maybe rather miffed at the government's action but the government has some larger responsibility than to just please some people.

Karan Thapar: Very interesting word you used 'miffed'. You are using the euphemism. Let me put it like this, do you have any regrets about how government handled this issue? Because Subodh Kant Sahay has publicly said that the government's strategy was bad and that the government was slow to explain. Would you agree with that?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Well individuals will have their own views and it is appropriate and justified if in a democracy we all have our own opinions. But if I look back past few days I don't think there was anything wrong on the part of the government.

Karan Thapar: Nothing wrong at all?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: At all. I would say that again because I will explain if you let me.

Karan Thapar: I will come to this but I just want rephrase this, you have no regrets whatsoever.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: The regret would if at all only be that if I only wished nothing like that would have happened at all. Baba Ramdev had not gone back to his word, the government would not been compelled to do what the government had to do. That is all the regret one could only have.

Karan Thapar: I want very much to talk to you about this specific critical detail of the handling of Baba Ramdev but first let me get from you two very critical clarifications. Kapil Sibal has gone on record to say that Baba Ramdev was only given permission to yoga shivir with 5000 people but ended up conducting a fast unto death with 50000 people watching. The truth is that for days, if not weeks in advance the whole country knew that this is what Baba Ramdev intended. How is it that the government alone was ignorant?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Well, I suppose the government was not ignorant but the government was giving him a long rope for that matter.

Karan Thapar: But you went on hanging yourself with that rope.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: No no, not at all. You know, if anybody can actually rue that day is Baba Ramdev. He, actually if I have to put, extracted defeat from the jaws of the victory.

Karan Thapar: Well, actually people say completely opposite. The people say the government extracted defeat from the jaws of the victory. But let's leave this aside and let's come back to this Kapil Sibal clarification. How is it that they didn't know that Baba Ramdev wanted to conduct fast unto death, the whole country knew it.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: See the assurance that Baba was repeatedly giving to the people who were talking to him on behalf of the government was that he wanted response from the government on different matters.

Karan Thapar: But you knew he was going on a fast unto death.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: He didn't say unto death. Let me make it clear. He said 'Hum tapp karenge (we will do meditation)' he used those words.

Karan Thapar: Forgive me, don't you read newspapers, don't you watch television? He was repeatedly saying he will start a fast unto death from the 4th of June.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Maybe we failed in convincing the press and change its views or the report that was there.

Karan Thapar: Do you accept that failure?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: No, I said maybe. But what I'm saying is he used the word 'tapp' (meditation) and we were going by it and we supposed to be. I think you should have gone by what he said and should have accepted him in good faith.

Karan Thapar: Thank you. You should have gone by what he said on TV not what he said to you in private.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: What he said on TV was contrary to what he said to us and that was the reason.

Karan Thapar: Funny thing is you are a government. You should be listening to him what he is saying on TV, what he was saying in the papers and if it was different you should have asked him the difference earlier, not that taken by surprise.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: No, the movement we found that he was crossing the line of discretion and decency, I'm using the word decency specifically because what he said was that he was going to sit on a 'tapp' than what he did later. And when we realised that the things would get out of hands then the government had to take an action, which government did.

Karan Thapar: It sounds to me not that the Baba fooled the government, but the government allowed itself to be willingly with its eyes open, fooled.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: No. I can't agree with that. I only said that the government only believes in the democratic functioning of the society and therefore discussion.

Karan Thapar: That is the second thing I want to question. Do you really believe in democratic functioning because just a couple of days ago P Chidambaram has an explanation for what happened revealed Baba's alleged links with the RSS, ABVP and the VHP going back to March 2011. Now, India is a democracy. Is it really the government's position that the RSS, ABVP and the VHP cannot join the peaceful protest against the black money and corruption, because that was precisely what P Chidambaram was alluding that this link with these organization was somehow made Baba's protest more reprehensible and therefore essential to end. That is undemocratic.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: You will have to split it into two parts. One, everybody has the right and the responsibility to fight against corruption whosoever he be. But when they cross that limit, when they do what Baba Ramdev is doing now, that was done in the presence of the RSS people, that was done in the presence of the BJP people. What he said was he will raise a force, an armed force.

Karan Thapar: Forgive me, he said that three days, four days later. Let's not confuse the issue.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: You can read into his mind.

Karan Thapar: What do you mean by read into his mind? Are you mind readers?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Well I'm not but you got to see…

Karan Thapar: You said reading into Baba's mind to justify what you did, in other words you imagined Baba's position and acted on it.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: We acted on what his big exhortation to the people on Ramlila ground were.

Karan Thapar: Can I interrupt and put this to you, many people were 'perturbed' that Sadhvi Ritambhara on Saturday morning was sitting there with him.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Yes

Karan Thapar: Many people don't like her and object to her.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Yes

Karan Thapar: But that is not a reason for the government to step in and act. Sadhvi Ritambhra has a democratic right to join the protest; the Baba has a right to have her. You may not like but you cannot interrupt it.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Right, but as I said you have to go back to his assurance to the government. To the four ministers there and subsequently to the two ministers on the third day and his actions at the Ramlila ground. He was supposed to be withdrawing it, he had said he will covert it to a thanks giving one but instead he started introducing more issues to it.

Karan Thapar: Let's just take that point up. He was supposed to be withdrawing it. Pranab Mukherjee publicly said that Baba has given assurance that the fast would end in two or three days. Those were Pranab Mukherjee's exact words on the television.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: This was earlier.

Karan Thapar: No, forgive me this was after Sunday. The fast began on Saturday, early Sunday morning was the end of the first day, you swooped early Sunday morning at the end of the first day of the fast. The Baba had given you assurance that he would withdraw the fast in two or three days, there was still a day or two left. Why couldn't you patiently have waited? Why did you swoop in the way you did?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Let me again make that point very clear. When I said the third day, it wasn't supposed to be the third day of the fast. The first day when talked to him on the airport, then the second day and then the third day when two ministers had talked to him. On the first day he said he would not sit beyond days.

Karan Thapar: But he hadn't even begun sitting. He began sitting on Saturday.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: No please let me make that point clear. When two ministers had met him he specifically assured them that he would convert it into… and by afternoon he would announce the withdrawal of the entire thing, packing up from there. He had assured him that and what Mr Pranab Mukherjee says on the third is referring to our first discussion to when we had together.

Karan Thapar: Just a moment, I have to stop you because the issue is confused over what happened on the first day and the second day. Look, you said he would withdraw it after three days but it has to start withdrawing from the first day which was Saturday that means Sunday and Monday.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: I'm saying he said that when he met us first, let me not say the first day…

Karan Thapar: In other words he was going to withdraw it before he began it?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: When he met the two ministers again then he did not refer to three days, then he did not say he will withdraw after three days. Then he said he would withdraw it by the afternoon of the first day.

Karan Thapar: And he didn't.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: What more important is your basic question, why did the government taken that action which the government took.

Karan Thapar: I will come to that in a moment's time. Let me first pick up what you have just said, you believed that in fact Baba gave you an assurance to withdraw it, let's not get caught up in this confusion about on which day and which day. Let's just agree that you had an assurance of withdrawal which he went back on. Kapil Sibal on Saturday evening made that public when he revealed the letter. Baba as a result was discredited, many of his followers were disillusioned and the Press seriously critically questioned him. At that Saturday night why didn't you wait for another 24-36 hours for this whole thing to fusil out on its own? Everybody believed that was going to happen.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: No, let me tell you I'm not a security related matters expert but what I understood of it is, I'm very much convinced about it that only that time you could have taken action.

Karan Thapar: Explain to me why was that the only time to send the police in?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: That is how I look at it.

Karan Thapar: Explain to me why.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: I'm explaining it. I'm not explaining it on behalf of an expert, I'm explaining it since you are putting me that question. I feel had the government waited for the next day and sent some people in the afternoon, you couldn't have done anything. That time Baba would have been sitting there in sighting some people. So, he was woken up…

Karan Thapar: I'm going to interrupt you because this is critical. You said you had to act after midnight because if you had waited more people could have arrived. I put this to you, you acted at 1 o'clock in the night, no one was to Baba from anywhere at that point of time. If you would have waited till 6 in the morning, if you would have given him 5 or 6 hours notice and given him 6 or 7 in the morning deadline what would you have lost. You could have done this peacefully, you could have done it democratically. Why didn't you do that?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: I suppose the answer lies in your question itself. When they went to him at 12 midnight, he didn't agree to what authorities have to tell him. He said give me five minutes I will be back. Then what he does is jumps off the stage, gets on the shoulders of the people, tries again to insight them and thereafter you look at the visual, there were no lathis with the people, there were no guns with the police. They were brick bats amongst the people, by that time everybody had woken up, they were throwing bricks. There wasn't even lobbing of the shells, there were only eight tear gas shots fired.

Karan Thapar: Minister, just a moment, before you start making a scene that the police was provoked by the people in using the guns…

Pawan Kumar Bansal: I'm not saying provoked.

Karan Thapar: That is what you are suggesting.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: No no.

Karan Thapar: Let me finish the question that you want. What you are forgetting is that you swooped after midnight on the people who were peacefully asleep. If you would have given the Baba the deadline of the following day, if you would have made that public that you have given this notice, the country might have supported tougher action at 6 or 7 in the morning. What the country is appalled about is that you descended with lathis and tear gas on people at midnight who were asleep.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: That much you have to leave on the people who have the duty and the responsibility to perform. Had you waited for that time? And what you are saying is in retrospect. Suppose the things would have gone out of hands in those 2-3 hours…

Karan Thapar: But they weren't going out of hands and there was no sign of it.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: The government has to figure in all those things, you have to factor in all those things. Suppose things would have gone out of hands after 24 hours you would have not been saying those things. What you would have been saying is why didn't you take action at the first moment?

Karan Thapar: Let me quote to you what Subodh Kant Sahay, your colleague and Cabinet Minister is saying, he says, "We cannot justify the police action beyond a point." Clearly members of the government have differences over this police action.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: See now this is the way you look at it. If two people express different views you say there is difference of opinion. If two people don't express different view you say they are dumb driven cattle, they all follow one line.

Karan Thapar: Hang on for a moment, when two members of the same government, both of whom were interlocutors expresses differences in opinion over the police action that has been criticized by the country, clearly it suggest that there is difference in the government.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Let me say what the police action was, I would like to come on that first. Police had clear instructions that they will not carry any weapon, they only had tear gas shell gun, or whatever you call them and only eight were fired. They were not lobbed at people.

Karan Thapar: What about the 30 odd people who were injured even though they were minor injuries? What about Rajbala, who is critically ill?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: I agree with that…

Karan Thapar: She is a poor person who may end up paralysed for life.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: This is a very important question which in fact distresses me as well. But again you have to look into it, we must to be swayed by our feelings. You have to look into it that what could have possibly happened. You have to ask for the medical report. What is the medical report? Whether she has been hit by something or whether some object fell on her? Unfortunately something must have fallen on her spine.

Karan Thapar: Are you absolutely sure that she wasn't hit by the police?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Well I feel so she wasn't.

Karan Thapar: What do you mean feel so?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Well I wasn't present on the occasion.

Karan Thapar: So then you don't know.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Please don't say what I'm saying couldn't be correct. What I'm saying is police had nothing to hit anyone.

Karan Thapar: You have just a 50 per cent chance on being correct on this. You are conjecturing and you are conjecturing while you want to defend the government.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: No no, What I feel is, I said that incident distresses me. It make me sad to learn that, that lady might not be able to walk again at all in her lifetime.

Karan Thapar: If it leaves you sad imagine how it leaves her family, her husband, her children.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: I agree, I empathise with her.

Karan Thapar: Leave empathy aside. How about an apology?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Well the first thing the government has announced is taking care of…

Karan Thapar: What about an apology? How about the simple words we are sorry?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: I won't comment into those matters at the moment.

Karan Thapar: Is the government too big and too proud to apologise to an aam aadmi (Common man).

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Your suggestion I will convey.

Karan Thapar: To whom?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Wherever it has to be conveyed.

Karan Thapar: Tell me something, is the government too proud that an aam aadmi (common man) injured in an incident can't get an apology?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Let me clear that; apology would be if the government has deliberately done something somewhere. If in the malice, please follow this, just reflect over this, you are talking about the next day or the 24 hours or the 36 hours. During the day time if the police were to reach Baba, when Baba was exhorting those people with all sort of things he was doing, what twitch people would have done? If they were told that they are coming to arrest him then how would the people had reacted? The reaction would have been very violent. It would have left hundreds dead there. The government therefore didn't acted that way.

Karan Thapar: Minister, let me interrupt the flow of language coming from you, you are a politician, let me ask you a simple question. Do you really believe that your voters will be convinced by what you are saying to me or will they be dismayed? Will the arrogance of the government to apologise to an Indian, an aam aadmi be acceptable to the people of India?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Let me first say that there is no arrogance on the part of the government. Had the government been arrogant, the government would not have engaged…

Karan Thapar: That is heartlessness.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: No no, I cannot agree with that at all. You have the right to use any word you may use but the government never thinks that way. The government has a responsibility to perform, to deal with the situation and responsibility to ensure that any incident doesn't go out of hand. Whereby people will say you could have done it differently. Why did you do on the third day, why did you do it at night? Please ask such question to security matters experts. They will tell you that best time for such operations is only at night.

Karan Thapar: When he did eventually speak, the Prime Minister of India said it was unfortunate but was unavoidable. Many people think it is callous and many think it is unconvincing and inadequate. Let me ask you doesn't the Prime Minister owe the country a fuller explanation?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Large number of people also feel that this was inevitable in the circumstances, that the government should have acted the way the government has acted. People have called me up and said this is time when the government has asserted the sovereignty of the government. This is how different people look differently at the same situation.

Karan Thapar: Asserted the sovereignty of the government over Indians who are peacefully protesting?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: You see this is what somebody else is saying. You call it callous but I'm just telling you that some people use those words for this. Therefore, what the Prime Minister said was with very measured words and with all the responsibility he has said.

Karan Thapar: What about my question? Does he owe the country a fuller explanation?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: Well it was for him to say anything but he chose only those few words to say.

Karan Thapar: It was about just three words.

Pawan Kumar Bansal: But he has conveyed everything in that. He said I wish it hadn't happened.

Karan Thapar: He has conveyed everything or he has hidden everything?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: No no, it was unavoidable he said. In those circumstances it was unavoidable and I would only appeal that is how it has to be looked into.

Karan Thapar: Is this the message to Rajbala, that the injury she suffered which can paralyze her for life, was unavoidable?

Pawan Kumar Bansal: The coming events, the medical report would prove how she was hurt but as I said we were distressed at that. But you can't rush to a conclusion that it was the police who inflicted that injury to her that way, deliberately, knowingly.

Karan Thapar: This time around I won't interrupt you, you are a minister let the country hear you. Thank you.

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