Words not enough, Pranab says Pak should act

Pakistan finally admitted that Ajmal Aamir Kasab, the lone terrorist caught alive during the Mumbai terror attacks, was a citizen of Pakistan but New Delhi is clearly not satisfied. It wants Pakistan to do more on the evidence it has provided. So, what are India's expectations now and what can one expect next in India's dealing with Islamabad? CNN IBN's Editor-in-Chief, Rajdeep Sardesai caught up with External Affairs Minister, Pranab Mukherjee on the issue.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Mr Mukherjee, thank you very much for joining us on the Weekend Edition on CNN-IBN. It appears that the Pakistani establishment has finally accepted that Kasab, the 26/11 terrorist, is from Pakistan. The big question now is that what does India expect?

Pranab Mukherjee: We expect now merely the admission of an obvious fact. They were in the denial mode of course but now it is good that they have accepted that Kasab is their citizen. But we would to see that the other perpetrators who are responsible for this terror attack on Mumbai, they should be brought to justice. One part of the investigation here is over but the conspiracy part of the investigation is to take place in Pakistan and Pakistan would take it to the logical conclusion.

Rajdeep Sardesai: So, you are saying that the next step has to be a full-scale investigation into the entire conspiracy of 26/11 but Pakistan is saying let us have a joint probe. Are you open to a joint Indo-Pak probe?

Pranab Mukherjee: The question is that how will it help us. We have a joint anti-terror mechanism but it did not produce much result. Therefore, it is not question of a joint investigation or receiving a delegation which they are open to.

Rajdeep Sardesai: So, you are ruling out joint probe?

Pranab Mukherjee: What I am saying is that what purpose would it solve? The purpose is not to just create a situation, push it aside and not taking a logical conclusion. It is a criminal matter, needs a criminal investigation. The criminal jurisprudence is the same in both these countries, therefore, let them take it to a logical conclusion. But the another aspect which we have demanded is that you dismantle the trading facilities, camps and other infrastructures available to the terrorists to carry on their operations from that side of the country.

Rajdeep Sardesai: But sir, they are not doing any of these. The flip side of this would be that one month or a month-and-a-half after 26/11 all that we have got from Pakistan is an admission and that too a confused admission that Kasab is a Pakistani. Is our diplomatic offensive really paying off?

Pranab Mukherjee: Exactly that is what, what they have done is precisely a very little that they have done. What they should do is a serious fight against terrorism, which they are saying in words but they are not doing in action.

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Rajdeep Sardesai: What are you asking for? Are you asking for them to be extradited to India after that?

Pranab Mukherjee: We are asking them to hand over the fugitive who have committed crime here and have taken shelter in Pakistan.

Rajdeep Sardesai: They have rejected that.

Pranab Mukherjee: They may reject it and that is why you are talking using the word diplomatic offensive. I am not using the word diplomatic offensive but I am using the word that we are trying to convince the international community that Pakistan is to do much more.

Rajdeep Sardesai: The other side of it is that the US State Department Spokesperson Sean McCormack said and I quote him - "Each side has the pieces of the puzzle that the other doesn't and so it is in their interest to work together". America is calling for a joint probe and you are saying a joint probe in not feasible, joint anti-terror mechanism doesn't work but America is trying to play the role of a neutral umpire between India and Pakistan.

Pranab Mukherjee: We are not interested in having an umpire.

Rajdeep Sardesai: So, what role do you want Americans to play?

Pranab Mukherjee: No, this is a matter to which Pakistan is to address.

Rajdeep Sardesai: The big question at the end of the day is pressure working on Islamabad? Do you get a sense that Islamabad is ready in some ways?

Pranab Mukherjee: Islamabad is still in the denial mode and that is why I myself said that if they would have pursued the material which we have given to them logically they will get a lot of leads from there to carry on further investigation.

Rajdeep Sardesai: But sir, it is very interesting that you speak about the material given to Islamabad. The fact is that in the material you have given you have mentioned the perpetrators, the role of the Lashkar (Lashkar-e-Toiba) but at no stage have you spoken about the Pakistani official agencies yet in all the public statements the Prime Minister and you yourself say that 26/11 could not have been conducted without Pakistani official agencies. Who are you specifically referring to? It is not there in the dossier

Pranab Mukherjee: What we have stated is very clear. The magnitude of the scale of the operation, its velocity, its intensity cannot be performed by some group or individuals.

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Rajdeep Sardesai: So, who are the specific official agencies you believe are involved because you have not mentioned anywhere?

Pranab Mukherjee: It is not a question of my belief.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Is it the army, the ISI?

Pranab Mukherjee: It is not a question of my belief. It is the question of the fact and that is why we are asking Pakistan that the conspiracy part happened on your land so it is your responsibility to carry it on further.

Rajdeep Sardesai: So, are your willing to give them more time and how much more time are you willing to give them? Because there is a feeling that Pakistanis are trying to buy time themselves.

Pranab Mukherjee: I am not specifying any time. The pressure will continue and certain steps have already been taken. The entered relationship has been put on a hold.

Rajdeep Sardesai: But that does relationship also includes trade, because the trade relations are still on between the two countries. Would you consider stopping trades?

Pranab Mukherjee: What kind of trades are we having with Pakistan? It is already a conditional trade because we have extended more favour towards Pakistan.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, I want to flip the question and say that we have no real options with Pakistan. How do you respond to those who say that war is not an option, would you agree?

Pranab Mukherjee: I am not going to discuss what options do we have. All options are open; we are not closing any option. But if you want to emphasise on any one option what option can I say? I can only say when I'll adopt an option, am option will be known only when I'll choose an option.

Rajdeep Sardesai: But sir, most people say that war is not an option - would you concede that?

Pranab Mukherjee: I am not conceding anything, I am not denying anything.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Some are now suggesting that it is the time to take tougher actions. They want an Israel like operation - like Israel has conducted an operation in Gaza.

Pranab Mukherjee: I don't agree to that because this is totally wrong and the situation is not at all comparable. I have not gone and occupied any of Pakistan's land which Israel has done, so how the situation can be compared.

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Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, who do you think is the incharge in Pakistan? We have just seen the National Security Advicer being sacked because he told CNN-IBN that Kasab was a Pakistani. In this situation, do you really know who is incharge in Pakistan, who are you really dealing with - is it Zardari, Gilani?

Pranab Mukherjee: This is really an unfortunate situation but we have no option. We only have to deal with the government of the day, it is not for me to decide.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Is it an open question? Are you certain who is in the power?

Pranab Mukherjee: It is not for me to judge, it is the people of Pakistan, the authorities in Pakistan to judge and take the corrective measures.

Rajdeep Sardesai: But, is it a worry for you that no one is the incharge?

Pranab Mukherjee: No, I cannot sit on their value judgement. It is only in this complusion of the situation that I am talking to you that I will have to deal with the incumbent government.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Mr Pranab Mukherjee, do you really believe that a Pakistani government of Asif Ali Zardari will really act against the army and the ISI if they were to be found involved in 26/11? Are we living in a slightly illusionary world?

Pranab Mukherjee: No, I am not living in any illusionary world, I am lving in a realistic world. I shall have to accept the world as it is, I cannot accept the world as it should be.

Rajdeep Sardesai: But Mr Mukherjee, there will those who will say that this is election season and your government will also like to drag this for a couple of months because that gives you an election issue. Pakistan certainly says that India wants to create a war hysteria because it will serve you in the elections. What is your response to that?

Pranab Mukherjee: There is no question of creating war hysteria. If you go through the chronolgy of the events you'll find if any one created war hysteria it was Pakistan and they have an objective. Their objective is to divert the attention when the international community raised its finger towards Pakistan and told them to do something then they thought the best way is to divert the attention so they went through a series of manipulations and imaginary things starting from hoax call to mobilisation to the violation of their air space.

Rajdeep Sardesai: You also made news for another reason this week, you were quoted in Chennai as saying that the day is not far when Rahul Gandhi will be the Prime Minister. So, are you suggesting that Rahul Gandhi much like Omar Abdullah in Jammu and Kashmir could be a potential Prime Minister after the General Elections?

Pranab Mukherjee: Look, it was in the context of a question that why the Indian political system does not transfer to the younger generation so I gave a series of examples, I started from the chief minister of Goa in the 60s and 70s Shashikala Kakodkar, I gave example of R Gundu Rao who became chief minister (Karnataka) at the age of 38, I gave example of Nandini Satpathy who became the chief minister of Orissa in 1970s and then finally I said that Omar Abdullah has become a Chief Minister at the age of 38 before that Praful Mahanto literally from the post graduate classroom of Guwahati University to the Secretariat, therefore the AICC General Secretary, who knows he may follow the good step of his father one day. Rajiv Gandhi also became the prime minister in his early 40s.

Rajdeep Sardesai: So, can I be more specific that is Rahul Gandhi a potential prime minister after the 2009 General Elections?

Pranab Mukherjee: I cannot say that who will be the potential and who will not be a potential.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Do you believe he has the potential to be a prime minister?

Pranab Mukherjee: The potential is in number of people. I do believe that India has number of persons who have the prime ministerial material and who have the potential but it depends how after the elections parties are going to choose their leaders. So, there are many unavoidable steps which everyone will have to take.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Should I be a bit mischievous and say that Pranab Mukherjee do you see yourself as someone who could still be a prime minister after the General Elections?

Pranab Mukherjee: I am talking about the younger generation.

Rajdeep Sardesai: You are young at heart.

Pranab Mukherjee: I am talking about people young in age. I have crossed 73, yes I was young in the 70s.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Mr Mukherjee, thank you very much for joining us.

Pranab Mukherjee: Thank you Rajdeep and my best wishes to you and your viewers.