Special show: Tradition vs modernity

On January 24 activists of the Sri Ram Sene (SRS) attacked women at a pub in Mangalore. The event that is being called India's shame goes to the heart of the clash between tradition and modernity in India. While many have condemned the violent attack, there seems to be a consensus between politicians that pub culture is immoral and is ruining Indian society.

However, women across India have protested that they have a right to go to pubs. What does the Mangalore incident mean to the Indian society? Are we genuinely fearful for the loss of Indian values? Or is the Indian society still regressive and narrow minded?

The issue was debated on CNN-IBN's special show Mangalore Morality and Culture. On the panel of experts were Actress Divya alias Ramya, Senior BJP leader, advocate and chairperson of the Karnataka Women's Commission Prameela Nesargi; former MP, Rajya Sabha, member of BJP BP Singhal; member of the band Indian Ocean, Rahul Ram; Editor, Manushi Madhu Kishwar and Editor, Marie Claire India, Shefalee Vasudev.

IS PUB CULTURE IMMORAL?

Though almost everyone has condemned the attack on the women at the Mangalore pub, politicians including Rajasthan Chief Minister Ashok Gehlot and Karnataka Chief Minister B S Yeddyurappa hold pub culture to be immoral.

Prameela began the debate and said she agreed with Yeddyurappa that pub culture is against the Indian culture. "Pub culture is bad because it opposes the morals and decency of the country," she said.

Singhal - who had earlier taken a strong stand that pub culture was ruining Indian society - joined the debate and said that though the incident was serious, one could not ban the SRS for just one misconduct. He also stated that drinking and the pub culture were against the Directive Principles of the Constitution.

Madhu Kishwar interrupted and said the Directive Principles do make it obligatory on the state to take the country towards prohibition. "However, since in India the Government has the monopoly on liquor licenses, drinking is more harmful in villages where men get drunk and physically abuse women and children. If drinking is against the Directive Principles of State Policy, then the Government should not be giving licenses to sell liquor," she said.

"I feel in a sense that pub culture is healthier. Men drink there with their friends and go home. In rural areas, men get drunk and go home where they beat up their wives and children," she said.

She also wanted to know from Singhal that when women have fought to get liquor shops closed in villages, why was the BJP Government not closing them?

Singhal responded and stated that the Karnataka government had already started by closing down pubs in the state. "You should congratulate the Karnataka government for making a start by closing down pubs," he stated acidly.

Madhu ridiculed his stand, retorting that it was much healthier to have consenting adults sit together and drink at a pub rather than the exploitation of women which took place in villages.

WHEN WILL MORAL POLICING END?

Shefalee joined the debate at this point and asked Singhal if the moral policing would come to an end if all Indian women stopped consuming alcohol and stopped wearing skimpy outfits? She further wanted to know from him whether after that the moral police would expect women to have children and dress traditionally? "Getting men and women out of a pro-choice activity is moral policing," she stated sharply.

Singhal however hit back with an incident in Mangalore where eight girls visiting pubs committed suicide and out of those eight, three were pregnant. He also reminded the panel of a rape case where a gang of drunk men gangraped a woman in Noida (Uttar Pradesh).

At this point Rahul Ram joined the attack against Singhal and wanted to know from him if visiting pubs was the sole reason for the girls to commit suicide? He then ridiculed Singhal's example and said he is encouraging hooliganism by supporting Mangalore's attack. "It is the men who need to be put behind bars for getting drunk. Beating up women in not a solution," he said.

Divya too joined in the discussion and stated that there were age restrictions along with the 11:30 pm deadline in pubs. She further said that those going to pubs are mature enough to take their own decisions.

"Alcohol isn't the sole cause for crime to be committed. One doesn't need to drink to commit crime. People don't drink to commit murder or rape. By banning pubs and clubs, one can't ban drinking and socialising ," she said.

INDEPENDENT WOMEN - A TARGET?

The modern Indian woman always seems to be in the light of controversy when the concepts of tradition and modernity clash. So, is it the independent woman who threatens India's traditional values and thus becomes a target for extremist groups?

Head of National Commission for Women's Fact Finding Commission, Nirmala Venkatesh had said on Friday evening that women needed to safeguard themselves.

In reaction to Nirmala's statement, Prameela Nesargi said she disagreed with NCW's statement and that she was glad the Mangalore incident was bringing many other incidents to light. "I've gotten to know of three girls who were taken forcefully to the pub by men. They were locked in a room for reasons unknown. These three ladies were rescued because of this incident," she said.

Madhu interrupted saying abductions take place everywhere. "Women are even abducted and kept at homes. If a woman is abducted and raped in a school, would all the schools then be closed?" she question.

Ram added to Madhu Kishwar's point saying it was not the question of modernity or liberation. "Women in India have been targetted since time immemorial and it is their progression which is threatening to man."

Adding to Ram's point, Shefalee said modernity was about pro choice. "There is a sexuality and gender angle which is always brought up in moral policing. It's not about dressing skimpily, even traditionally dressed women have been moral policed and even raped in the past. Indian women have even been criticised for attending prayer ceremonies while menstruating. It's not about short skirts, Ghoongat clad women have been moral policed and gangraped," she stated.

Commenting on the issue, Divya said was it sadistic to judge a woman by the way she dressed in a democracy like India. She further said the problem wasn't in the way women dressed, but in the way men perceived it.

"Women can dress anyway they want to but it's the men who need to change their mindset. They are perverted and that is the mindset they need to change," she said.

However, Madhu mooted this point saying that there was a certain way to dress in public and that it was unhealthy for a woman to use her body to grab male attention.

To this Shefalee said, "There is a certain kind of unnecessary provocative dressing which is inappropriate at a certain time and place. But it doesn't mean women who dress up provocatively deserve to be beaten up and molested."

IS WESTERNISATION THE CULPRIT?

Since pub culture is a concept of the West, many "morality promotors" feel India is trying to copy the West and that it is this kind of westernisation in India - mindless, indecent - which is leading to social unrest.

Rahul Ram strongly disagreed with this saying westernisation shouldn't be blamed for social unrest. "One's progression often causes envy to few, which leads to one taking refuge in tradition and culture. When you see other people progressing, you regress. And you start forcing your outmoded views of morality and culture on other people," he said.

Singhal, who was on another tangent, explained that the culture prevailing in the West had its own issues of drugs, teenage pregnancy and nuclear families. He said the pub culture would and in fact was giving rise to these concepts in India. He questioned if this what people wanted for India's future?

For a change, Madhu Kishwar agreed with him saying that Indians didn't want the concept of family being broken and fragmented, as it was in the West.

Shefalee intruded here saying, "There are separate people standing up for different issues. One needs to find a common ground and bridge the gap to create a homogenised, trail and error culture."

"I don't know what the Government takes us for. They talk about India shining and they are the ones who give permission to foreign companies to invest and they are opening outlets of restaurants and bars and pubs which are there abroad. They do this for the economy of India and then they punish us for going to pubs and drinking. But I think it's individual choice where to draw the line, how to dress, how much to drink or not," Divya said.

BP Singhal interrupted at this point saying that he wanted to read out a passage from English historian Sir Arnold Toynbee's work for those who were talking about the West and condemning Indian culture. He read: "It is already becoming clear that a chapter which has a western beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not to end in the self-destruction of the human race. The only way of salvation for mankind is the Indian way."

Madhu Kishwar said that it was ridiculous to quote a British man to endorse Indian values. Prameela Nesargi, agreed saying that westernisation was required sometimes. "We have to borrow technology from them and adopt it. So far as the clothes are concerned, a balance has to be maintained which will not provoke man or society at large," she stated.

She said that there was nothing wrong in pub culture and that women had the right to choose what they wanted to wear. "We are strong enough to know what is good and what is bad for us. No one can compel us to wear certain clothes or behave in a certain way," she said.

CULTURE IS A MATTER OF CHOICE

Madhu Kishwar said that the young men who went and attacked women at the pub were ruthless, culture-less.

"They are goondas and goondaism thrives usually among ruthless people. The kind of goondaism that they are displaying is very modern because it is linked to the culture of extortion - the very fact that they called TV channels there proves this. This to my mind is linked to the Shiv Sena goonda culture which we have seen in Maharashtra, which is very modern and totally alien to India," she said.

Shefalee Vasudev said that if pub culture tomorrow started supporting drugs, alcoholism and crime, then there is a problem of law and order. "I don't know if it is a moral problem, but if pub culture is about socialising, about having a drink with friends of the other sex, about dancing and wearing different kinds of clothes then it is not incongruent to a whole lot of changes that the Indian society is going through. How can it be," she questioned.

BP Singhal stated at this point that he was not resisting any change in the Indian society. "But the point is that pub culture degrades into drug culture which degrades into promiscuity and sexual debauchery. This is all going together. Those pubs, which abide by the law and allow only people above 25 to enter, then it's fine. But if it is deteriorating into this, then my God, something needs to be done," he stated.

Rahul Ram and Madhu Kishwar agreed that pubs should run according to the law of the land. Rahul Ram said that what he wanted to know was that who is going to determine what are Indian values in a land so diverse.

"I don't think there is any consensus on values. The Northeast functions in a different way where there is much more easy mixing between boys and girls. This is in complete opposition to say a Haryana where if a girl is seen talking to a boy, both may be killed. In tribal areas again the intermingling of opposite sexes is much more easy, so who defines Indian culture and values?" he asked.

Prameela Nesargi said that people were already very westernised but if they could be modest along with it, then it would serve the country well. She concluded saying that modesty may not be a very fashionable word, but for the Indian woman to survive as a free woman she must adopt the virtue of modesty.

India is a far more conservative country than it appears at first glance but as globalisation creates new lifestyles, as economic slowdown creates more and more unemployed youth, the clash between the so-called haves of morality and the so-called have nots of morality will probably only get wider and grow.

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