Not regulating web to protect PM, Sonia: Sibal

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New Delhi: Information Technology and Communication Minister Kapil Sibal, speaking to Karan Thapar on Devil's Advocate, clarified that the government did not want to pre-screen any of the content on various Internet platforms.

He said that the government had asked Internet platforms to form a set of guidelines according to their standards to protect the sentiments of people in the country.

Sibal said that he only asked them to remove content which was degrading, demeaning, vulgar and obscene, and unacceptable by any set of community standards.

Here's the entire transcript of the interview

Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. Has Kapil Sibal's meeting with the Internet platforms been misunderstood by the media? Or is he genuinely guilty of trying to regulate and, worse, censor content? That's the key issue I shall pursue today with the Minister of Information Technology and Communication Kapil Sibal himself.

Kapil Sibal there's a lot of ignorance, misunderstanding and confusion, both about the meeting you had with Internet platforms as well as what you asked of them. So let me first begin by trying to clarify the facts before I give you a chance to answer your critics.

I know you can't share with us the offensive material that you discovered on the net but for the benefit of the audience would you describe what sort of material it was?

Kapil Sibal: It was degrading, demeaning, vulgar and obscene, and unacceptable by any set of community standards. And I have shown it to you and I'm sure you'll agree with me.

Karan Thapar: Is it your position as minister that if this sort of material had been widely disseminated and seen, it could have led to protest perhaps even riots and violence?

Kapil Sibal: It could, it could, very easily. And therefore, when I started the meetings I said, 'look, let's work together and lets come up with a solution for this problem', because they themselves accepted that this kind of content is unacceptable even by their own standards.

Karan Thapar: That was said to you categorically by the Internet platforms themselves?

Kapil Sibal: Yes

Karan Thapar: Now newspapers, both in India and abroad, have said that your primary concern when you met the Internet platforms was to protect Dr Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi.

Kapil Sibal: I'm really surprised. I'm absolutely appalled at that because when the content was circulated to them, the content that we really objected to was the content that would impact religious sentiments in India, no matter to what religion you belong - Hindu, Islam, Christianity.

Karan Thapar: So on this point let me just clarify, even if as a loyal Congressman you might not like criticism of the Prime Minister and Sonia Gandhi, is it your position that you were not seeking to stop lampooning or satirising or criticism of the Prime Minister or Sonia Gandhi or any other politician on the net?

Kapil Sibal: We would not like to do that for anybody. I think that the media has the right to criticise, the media has the right to be satirical and that's part of the freedom of expression that we ourselves in government cherish.

Karan Thapar: You would not stop that type of content on the net in any shape and form?

Kapil Sibal: Ofcourse not.

Karan Thapar: Let's then come back to what you say was your central focus, blasphemous and offensive content on these Internet platforms. When did you first raise this issue with the Internet platform?

Kapil Sibal: Way back on the September 5 we raised this issue and we circulated some of the content that was blasphemous, that you mentioned, and demeaning. They agreed with it and we said lets start a dialogue and come back to us within four weeks.

Karan Thapar: What then happened?

Kapil Sibal: Then on October 3, because they didn't come back to us, we wrote to them saying 'let's meet up as quickly as possible because you had to come up with solutions'.

Karan Thapar: So between September 5 and October 3, although you had asked them for a response you got nothing ?

Kapil Sibal: We got nothing.

Karan Thapar: They prevaricated?

Kapil Sibal: Yes, they prevaricated. On October 3 we wrote to them. Again we did not get a response. Then on October 19, we again wrote to them, again we got no response.

Karan Thapar: So three times you contacted them and three times you got no response?

Kapil Sibal: No response. Then on the November 4, the Secretary DIT called a meeting and said that 'look you had promised a response by four weeks, you haven't given it. Let's work together and see, because if you, yourself say that this content is unacceptable there must be solutions at your end'.

Karan Thapar: At that meeting what was their response?

Kapil Sibal: No, there was a discussion on broad areas in which both sides agreed. There was a discussion on some kind of framework that we can develop mutually, oral discussion on that. Nothing much happened. Then on November 17 the Secretary again met them and distributed what was orally agreed earlier, the broad parameters of the framework. They broadly agreed with many things in it, they didn't agree with some things. But nothing was done thereafter.

Karan Thapar:So in fact what you're saying to me is that atleast on three occasions when you contacted them, they prevaricated, they did not respond; so there is a history of your contacting them and them not responding?

Kapil Sibal: Yes, because we wanted them to come up with solutions.

Karan Thapar: And then there was also, during this process, a moment when there was an oral agreement or understanding on a broad framework, but again they didn't commit themselves to it?

Kapil Sibal: Yes, they didn't commit themselves. Orally they agreed to some things, disagreed with some things; but they didn't commit. And then on the November 29, I called a meeting and I was then present and I said 'look three months have passed and you had to come up with some solutions so I want something in writing and I give you one week's time and I fix December 5 as the date for a final response'.

Karan Thapar: And that's the point at which the story has now reached?

Kapil Sibal: Right. On December 5 they threw up their hands and they said 'we can't deal with any of this from our end and we will apply US community standards'.

Karan Thapar: Now there's a certain amount of confusion according to the reports in the press about what exactly you wanted. A senior official of your ministry quoted in 'The Hindu' on December 6, that you wanted screening pre-uploading. But the very next day on December 7, you said that actually you wanted them to look at content after it is uploaded and after it's been established that it was offensive. So what is it that you wanted, pre-uploading screening and monitoring or post uploading?

Kapil Sibal: Karan there can be no pre-screening of content on the electronic media and on the social media. Can we pre-screen the content we see on your channel, we cannot. It would be madness to ask for it and I don't think any sane person would. And we did not.

Karan Thapar: This is a very important answer you're giving. Let me quote you what the senior official of the department of telecom said to 'The Hindu' on December 6. He said, "We have asked them to actively screen and filter all such material before they are uploaded." That is not your position?

Kapil Sibal: Listen, this cannot be the government's position and I don't think that that could be the right quote, quite frankly.

Karan Thapar: So you're position is in fact that you wanted these platforms to look at material after it was uploaded if it was deemed to be offensive and then remove it?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. Deemed to be offensive by their standards, not even our standards because this material will be offensive, will be degrading and demeaning by any standard.

Karan Thapar: So you were asking them to judge content by their agreed, personal, established standards and not by the government's standard?

Kapil Sibal: On this content.

Karan Thapar: What happens if in your scheme of things you had pointed out to them that certain material was offensive and they by their own standards disagreed? Would you have accepted that?

Kapil Sibal: They have a right to disagree. We can only point out that some content is not acceptable by community standards in India; they have the right to disagree.

Karan Thapar: So I'm underlining two or three important things you've said. First of all, you were not looking for screening or monitoring before uploading. As you say that is impossible. That was not the government's position, any quotation in 'The Hindu' to that effect is wrong. Secondly, you were asking them to set up a system that they would set up, to monitor content after it was uploaded, if it was deemed to be offensive and that judgement would happen according to their standards not yours. Have I correctly understood you?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely, and that if that content was unacceptable by our community standards, we'd point it out to them and they have the right to disagree.

Karan Thapar: They have the right to disagree?

Kapil Sibal: Ofcourse

Karan Thapar: Let me repeat to you what a Google spokesman has said about Google's position, 'When content is legal and does not violate our policies, we will not remove it just because it is controversial as we believe that people's differing views, so long as they are legal, should be respected and protected'.

Kapil Sibal: We have no problem with that except that they themselves accept that this content which you have seen yourself Karan, cannot possibly be legal. And therefore, why did they not remove it? Take child pornography - will they tell the world that we will not remove it because somebody else thinks that it's okay?

Karan Thapar: So the anomaly here is that you don't disagree or in any way differ with the Google position that I've just quoted, what you're pointing out is that even by Google standards the content that you had drawn their attention to was impermissible and yet they were not stepping in to remove it?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely.

Karan Thapar: So what you're saying is that they were failing to live you upto their own standards?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. They were failing to live up the law that they themselves enforcing in their own country by their own community standards.

Karan Thapar: In other words, this is a sort of double standards that they are setting?

Kapil Sibal: There is no doubt about that.

Karan Thapar: Now why did this entire communication, this entire correspondence that went on from September 5 till December 5, why was it held in secret? Why did you not make it public to the Indian audience?

Kapil Sibal: I wanted a solution in dialogue with them. I wanted them to come on the same platform as us and deal with this issue in a sensible, responsible manner. If this were to go out in the public, it would create problems as you know.

Karan Thapar: So you deliberately out of discretion chose to keep this secret?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. And I didn't mention it to anybody, either in government or outside government because I don't want this content to go out.

Karan Thapar: Now this entire business has come to light as a result of an article by the New York Times. How did the New York Times find out about this?

Kapil Sibal: I'm a little surprised. We never talked to them, they never talked to us. They never sought my response and they attributed all this to personalities in the Congress Party, which is far from the truth.

Karan Thapar: Is it your suspicion and hunch that perhaps the platforms themselves leaked this to the New York Times?

Kapil Sibal: I cannot possibly respond to that because I don't know the facts. But surely, obviously, this was done at somebody's instance, at whose instance I don't know.

Karan Thapar: When the New York Times published this story, it did so with a twist that your primary concern was to protect Dr Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi. You're saying to me that that twist is a distortion of your views.

Kapil Sibal: It's unfortunate that a responsible newspaper like New York Times would come out with that story without even checking with me as to what content I was wanting to deal with.

Karan Thapar: At no point did the New York Times check with you about the veracity of the story?

Kapil Sibal: Not at all and there is no quote in the New York Times, if you notice in that article. Nobody is quoting it.

Karan Thapar: Have you drawn the attention of the New York Times to the fact that they have published a story which you believe is inaccurate and untrue and which they did not double check with you before publishing?

Kapil Sibal: Well someone from the New York Times told me 'we want to keep you on your toes'.

Karan Thapar: Someone from the New York Times said they want to keep you on your toes?

Kapil Sibal: Yes.

Karan Thapar: So in other words this was a deliberately done as the way of getting at you?

Kapil Sibal: I don't want to attribute motives but the circumstantial evidence is quite clear.

Karan Thapar: The newspapers also say that an official of the American embassy contacted an additional secretary in your ministry to raise this matter.

Kapil Sibal: I don't want to talk about these things.

Karan Thapar: But you're not denying it

Kapil Sibal: Whether I deny it or not, I don't want to talk about it. I think that such decisions must be taken by the sovereign government in the interest of the nation.

Karan Thapar: And you don't accept the right of American officials be it even Hillary Clinton, who has commented on this 24 hours ago, to interfere?

Kapil Sibal: No comments on any of that.

Karan Thapar: Let's widen our discussion. Let me put to you one of the reasons why many people are suspicious perhaps even distrustful of the government and perhaps personally of your motives. It goes back to the fact that in April this year your ministry published what are called intermediary guidelines, which contained vague, wide and imprecise terms such as threatening, abusive, disparaging, harassing, blasphemous, objectionable, defamatory and people say that when a clever lawyer like Kapil Sibal deliberately uses such vague and imprecise terms he's obviously casting a wide net to try and entrap. He's creating room so that he's got the grounds to censor whenever he wants for whatever he wants.

Kapil Sibal: I'm surprised because if that were the case I would have censored all this stuff by now. I would have done it by now because the guidelines are there when we were having a dialogue with them. So obviously it was not my intent, ever, to interfere in the social media in any form whatsoever. I wanted them to evolve their own guidelines, by their own standards but if somebody throws up his hands to content which is unacceptable, I will have to do something…

Karan Thapar: But would you accept that the use of terms that are so wide and imprecise such as harassing, disparaging, objectionable leads people to be worried, to put it mildly?

Kapil Sibal: Well, I mean, if they are not worried by the content that they have put on their websites, they shouldn't be worried because we haven't taken any action.

Karan Thapar: I will tell you why people are worried by this sort of language. It's to do with the fact that when MF Hussain's paintings were objected to, they were called objectionable, blasphemous, they were called defamatory; you and your son defended his right to show those paintings. Today people say that same wide language is being used and it worries them.

Kapil Sibal: We will defend any citizen's right to freedom of speech till our last breath. That's what I stand for. And I'm sure this government stands for. But, we don't want this kind of content to be on the social media.

Karan Thapar: Another reason why people are suspicious perhaps even distrustful is because Google has revealed that in the last one year, of the 358 items that the government wanted removed from Google, 255 or 71 per cent come under what's called the 'Government Criticism Category'. People turned around and said once again the government is protecting itself.

Kapil Sibal: I'm surprised that you said government wanted removed because from my ministry , I think for Google in the last one year probably 3-4 requests have gone and they have been denied. And we haven't taken any action.

Karan Thapar: It could be other government states

Kapil Sibal: It could be individuals

Karan Thapar: But Google says they come under the Government Criticism Category and if I recall correctly from memory of that figure of 255, something above 235 were requested by one single political authority.

Kapil Sibal: Not to my knowledge. Infact, it's not been done by my ministry at all. As I told you the organisation that deals with it, I checked up yesterday has sent 3-4 requests to Google which have been denied. And no action has been taken, which means that the intent of the government is quite clear. We want them to take action. We don't want to be proactive on this. But if they throw up their hands, we'll have to evolve some guidelines. We'll have to.

Karan Thapar: In other words, they may force you to evolving guidelines, which would be against your initial inclination that you would rather they did it themselves?

Kapil Sibal:Karan Thapar: I'm just going to pick up an important thing that you've said in that answer. You're going to hold a round table on the 15 of this month, presumably with the Internet platforms, perhaps with other people as well to publicly evolve guidelines and a response to the fact that such material must not be on the net and it needs to be tackled in an agreed consensual way?

Kapil Sibal: I ask you Karan, would you have it on your net or your channel? You have seen the material. I want to ask you.

Karan Thapar: Personally no I wouldn't, but this is not a decision I have to take.

Kapil Sibal: No you wouldn't, correct. So if you wouldn't, would your channel then not evolve guidelines to make sure that it is not there, if it were there?

Karan Thapar: And the object of the round table that you are going to hold on 15 is about guidelines, consensually with the Internet provider.

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely..

Karan Thapar:… Have they been informed of this?

Kapil Sibal: We will inform them.

Karan Thapar:… So they may hearing for the first time in the interview?

Kapil Sibal:No, I said it in The Hindu also that was published. I will be holding consultations.

Karan Thapar: Critics of yours turned around and say that rather than formally called the Internet platform, which is liable to be misunderstood and misinterpreted, as sadly has been the case, what you should have done, was take a leaf out of Digvijaya Singh's book, when he suffered similar problem personally and file an FIR and leave the matter to the police and court.

Kapil Sibal: You know Karan this is the procedure that will not work. By the time an FIR is filed and the investigation is done, we will have to get to know what the source of that content is and Google and Facebook refuse to provide that source to us. So who are we going to prosecute? Number two, assuming they give us the source many of them are outside our jurisdictions. So how do we prosecute? It will cost millions of dollars to prosecute. While we go to court outside our jurisdiction to prosecute, this content will be on website. It will have caused damaged and the kind of damage that you and I can't even imagine and even if I were to do that what would be the impact of that after 10 years. I want the solution today as it happened as the content is uploaded.

Karan Thapar: So a legal remedy for all the reasons you are giving me would be impractical?

Kapil Sibal: Impractical and it'll lead to nothing.

Karan Thapar: A leader in The Hindu today says, 'perhaps what the government should consider what Internet platform should also consider, is the setting of an independent regulator. One that doesn't come under the government and one that is separate from the platform. When you will hold your round table on December 15, is this an idea you are open to?

Kapil Sibal: We will ask them for suggestions. When we will say what is the kind of not regulation because I think is an improper word to use, what is the kind of consensual guidelines that should be evolved and which should be part of self regulation that you will enforce on your own terms. And if you do not enforce those regulations on your own terms, what is the kind of actions the governments or other authorities or individuals can take against you.

.

Karan Thapar:…So all of this is going to be an open discussions ?

Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. That is must be because these are issues that are confronting society today.

Karan Thapar: Could you invite the press to be party to the round table?

Kapil Sibal: I will love to have the press there.

Karan Thapar: So, it will be completely open and transparent ?

Kapil Sibal: Yes, absolutely. As I have done in past in all my round table.

Karan Thapar: Let me end by quoting to you, one of the comment made by The Indian Express. Often a newspaper, that is a supporter of you, in this instance, they were one of your most caving critics. They say "this action only confirms how out of touch Sibal is when as a minister of IT and HRD, his first instinct is to restrict and regulate'.

Kapil Sibal:Whatever I have said in the interview today and whatever I said at the press briefing doesn't either amount of restrictions or regulation. It is evolving a consensus that is acceptable to the media.

Karan Thapar: So has such comments in the press been unfair to you?

Kapil Sibal: I don't want to say anything. You see that also a part of freedom and expression. So I will allow them to make that comment with the hope that as time passes, wisdom prevails.

Karan Thapar: But are you a misunderstood man?

Kapil Sibal: No, no people understand me, people know me.

Karan Thapar: And perhaps after this interview hopefully they understand you a little better.

Kapil Sibal: Thanks you.

Karan Thapar: Kapil Sibal, a pleasure talking to you.

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