SM Krishna's doubts Pakistan's promises

How does the new Foreign Minister S M Krishna view the two key relationships he has to manage: with Pakistan and the United States? That is the key issue Karan Thapar explored with S M Krishna on Devil's Advocate.

Karan Thapar: Foreign Minister, let's start with Pakistan. It is 10 days since Hafiz Mohammad Saeed was released and even now the government in Pakistan hasn't made up its mind whether they want to appeal against the release or not. What do you make of that?

SM Krishna: We haven't heard anything from Pakistan about the appeal that they are supposed to make in a higher court of law.

The very release of a known terrorist who was instrumental and masterminded the terrorist attack on India on 26/11 has certainly created doubts in us about the sincerity of Pakistan in dismantling the terror instrumentalities that have come up on the soil of Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: And now the delay in appealing, is that underlining the doubts?

SM Krishna: It is. It is.

Karan Thapar: As you view what happened, do you think Hafiz Mohammad Saeed was released because Pakistan today has a strong and assertive judiciary or because the authorities deliberately presented a weak case?

SM Krishna: Well, we know how cases are fought in a court of law and Pakistan could not be an exception. We know that Pakistan could have made more serious attempts in fighting the case and I believe that not enough was done in pursuing the case.

Karan Thapar: Do you have reason to believe that elements of the military or the ISI undermined a strong case? Did they do it on purpose?

SM Krishna: The whole approach of Pakistan has become debatable in as far as terror and attacking terror is concerned.

Karan Thapar: So in a sense handling Hafiz Saeed was a credibility test for Pakistan and in your eyes they haven't necessarily passed that test?

SM Krishna: I think that was one of the important landmarks. He was a terrorist who was wanted in the 26/11 attack and the way he was released and the way Pakistan government took that release and have not followed it up by preferring an appeal shows that they are not serious about pursuing the perpetrators of that attack on India.

Karan Thapar: So Pakistan has actually failed an important credibility test?

SM Krishna: I think over a period of time it is our experience that Pakistan says something for outward consumption but it doesn't really mean what it conveys to the rest of the world.

Karan Thapar: The release of Hafiz Saeed is one setback that has happened, the other is that the United Kingdom has held back consent for declaring Masood Azhar and Azam Cheema terrorists under UN resolution 1267. Do you feel let down by Gordon Brown and David Miliband?

SM Krishna: Well, we have the best of relationship with the United Kingdom and they say they are one with us in fighting terror because terror is a universal phenomenon today.

Karan Thapar: But suddenly on this critical issue they held back consent.

SM Krishna: I think the United Kingdom ought to have been more circumspect in dealing with this particular aspect.

Karan Thapar: So you are disappointed with the United Kingdom?

SM Krishna: Well, I expected something much better from the UK.

Karan Thapar: Have you communicated this to the UK?

SM Krishna: We have our own ways of communicating whatever we feel like through our diplomatic channels.

Karan Thapar: Side by side India is also being nudged by the Obama administration to resume the political dialogue with Pakistan. The President said it in his Af-Pak speech. Then he said it again in April when he met the Prime Minister in London. How intense is the pressure to resume the dialogue?

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SM Krishna: I do not know from where one gets this idea that India is a country which can be pressurised to take a particular posture. We are a sovereign country and we take decisions in what is best for our national interest.

We have got to safeguard our territory; we have got to safeguard our polity, so we will be guided by the developments in our own country rather than being pressurised by ‘A’ power or ‘B’ power.

Karan Thapar: William Burns, the American Undersecretary of State, met you on Wednesday and it is also well known that he has brought a letter from President Obama for Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

You have received a letter from Hillary Clinton directly as well. Is this part of a concerted attempt by America to persuade or push India into resuming the political dialogue with Pakistan?

SM Krishna: We have taken up our relationship with the US to a higher level than what it was especially after the civil nuclear treaty. We have moved closer to the US.

In view of the fact that there are a number of other concerns where we are acting closely with the US, so they might have friendly advice, suggestions, just as we can give them friendly advice and suggestions. But that doesn't mean to say that they are going to pressurise us or we are going to pressurise them.

Karan Thapar: So you do accept that you are receiving friendly advice, suggestions to start talks with Pakistan?

SM Krishna: We have friendly exchange of views about not only the bilateral relationship between the US and India but about the border situation, the neighbourhood.

Karan Thapar: Of course, analysts say it is not just friendly advice as you call it or pressure as analysts call it, that you are receiving from the Obama administration.

They also say that despite numerous denials from the Obama administration it is becoming increasingly clear that in fact part of Richard Holbrook's agenda, although hidden and secret, is India.

Does that worry you?

SM Krishna: What the US does with other countries is their own concern. But where India is concerned we are free to take decisions depending upon the circumstances prevailing in our country and keeping the national interest of India in mind.

Karan Thapar: Let me put it to you like this, given that suspending the political dialogue with Pakistan hasn't pushed the country to either bring the accused in the Mumbai terror strike to justice or even to dismantle the infrastructure of terror, how long do you think it is useful for India to keep the political dialogue suspended?

SM Krishna: We have said--the Prime Minister on the floor of the House did make a mention about this. He said that if Pakistan shows the sincerity that is necessary to convey to us that they are rearing to go the whole hog in trying to destroy the instrumentalities of terrorism which is directed against India, perhaps India will be too willing to resume the dialogue with Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: Let me quote something to you. Listening to the Prime Minister's reply to the President's address, the ‘Hindu’ commented that what earlier looked and sounded like rigid pre-conditions had now transformed into reasonable expectations. Is that a correct characterisation of the Indian position today?

SM Krishna: We are hoping that Pakistan sees the path of reason and they would live up to what we expect them to do. Then perhaps it becomes smoother for any dialogue to be meaningful. There should be a very conducive atmosphere and that is what we are trying to create.

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Karan Thapar: You are trying to create a conducive atmosphere...

SM Krishna: ...for a dialogue with Pakistan which should take note of this.

Karan Thapar: Now in his reply to the President's address the Prime Minister said that "if the leadership in Pakistan has the courage, determination and statesmanship to act against terror I assure them that we will meet them more than halfway." What in your eyes would be proof of courage, determination and statesmanship?

SM Krishna: Whatever they have been saying after that attack on India on 26/11 whatever that has happened, so many innocent lives were lost, property damaged and as a result of that the relationship between India and Pakistan has suffered and taken a nosedive.

Karan Thapar: So you are saying show some reasonable movement, give us and help us resume the dialogue by being reasonable with your reactions and responses.

SM Krishna: That is what we expect from Pakistan. They should take some credible steps to convey to India that they are willing to fight terror both within and without.

Karan Thapar: Am I right in reading into your words and tone a somewhat more accommodating attitude? You still want them to do things but you are more accommodating and understanding today.

SM Krishna: It all depends upon Pakistan's attitude.

Karan Thapar: If they respond well then you will accommodate?

SM Krishna: If they respond well, we have said repeatedly, I repeat whatever the Prime Minister has said or we have said earlier.

Karan Thapar: I understand. If Pakistan responds well India will be accommodating but if Pakistan is obstinate then India can't be accommodating.

SM Krishna: I think you have summed it up very well.

Karan Thapar: So accommodation is the key note here in the relationship with Pakistan?

SM Krishna: Yes.

Karan Thapar: Now let's come to America. After eight years of an excellent relationship under George Bush, many people believe that under US President Barack Obama the relationship could be problematical. To what extent do you share that concern?

SM Krishna: I do not share that perception that under President Obama the relationship between the US and India is going to be any different than it was when president Bush was there.

Karan Thapar: You expect it to continue in the same trajectory?

SM Krishna: I believe and am looking forward that the same relationship will continue and perhaps we might improve our relationship further as we go along the road.

Karan Thapar: Let me tell you why people are concerned that this relationship could become problematical. To begin with, it is said that the new US government has an overwhelming pre-occupation with Pakistan as a result of which India is largely seen through the lens of disturbing events in Pakistan. Has Obama's vision re-hyphenated India and Pakistan?

SM Krishna: From whatever I have read and heard about President Obama, he is a great democrat, not in the sense that he belongs to the Democrat’s party but he believes in democracy.

He will be dealing with the biggest democracy in the world which is India. So India and the US have so much in common in terms of our values that we attach and the democratic values. So I think we should be working very closely with the United States.

Karan Thapar: So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that even if at the moment he has an overwhelming pre-occupation with Pakistan that won't stand in the way or it won't hinder a good close relationship with India.

SM Krishna: The US' relationship with other countries is certainly something that they will have to evaluate themselves. But as far as we are concerned, whether it is President Obama or the Secretary of State, Mrs Hillary Clinton, I believe that they understand India's position globally speaking and India's strength in the neighbourhood and India's relevance in keeping peace and tranquility in this stable region.

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Karan Thapar: Let me point out the second concern and it links in directly with your belief that both Obama and Clinton understand India's strength and its role in the region.

The former American ambassador Robert Blackwill recently in a major speech to CII said that India does not figure in an important way in US calculations regarding Afghanistan.

And you know that America is slowly but surely looking for good or moderate Taliban to incorporate into the Afghan government, something which Pakistan endorses but India has strong reservations about.

SM Krishna: I do not know how to distinguish between a good and a bad Taliban. Talibanism is certainly evil personified.

Karan Thapar: All Taliban?

SM Krishna: Yes, all Taliban are evil personified.

Karan Thapar: Precisely my point. So if President Obama believes that there is an element of the Taliban that can be won over and brought into government that would cause you great concern and disquiet?

SM Krishna: That is something which the US will have to work out with Pakistan. And we certainly will have no role in shaping that.

Karan Thapar: In fact you will keep your distance from it.

SM Krishna: But we evaluate what Talibanism is all about and we certainly will communicate to the US in our own way what we feel about it.

Karan Thapar: You will express your thinking to the US? You will not leave them in any doubt.

SM Krishna: We will communicate to them through the normal diplomatic channels and others.

Karan Thapar: A third area of concern is that America has made it clear that they would like India to sign NPT and if America itself ratifies CTBT then you will be under pressure to sign that as well. Do you think President Obama understands India's special nuclear status in the same way as George Bush understood it?

SM Krishna: Well, we presume that President Obama understands India's special status. Without reason President Bush would not have given us that kind of a status so I am sure the new administration in the US will understand the compulsions of India to not sign.

Karan Thapar: You used a very interesting phrase. You said we presume he understands India's special nuclear status. There is a certain element of doubt in that presumption, isn't there?

SM Krishna: Well, we will have to wait and see.

Karan Thapar: In the meantime have you sought an assurance from Washington that the $2.8-billion military aid that they are about to give Islamabad won't end up being used against India?

You know it has happened in the past. Obama himself, when he was a candidate, has said that it has happened. So what is the guarantee that it won't happen again?

SM Krishna: The very fact that President Obama himself has said something to that account when he was campaigning for the presidency of the US… we proceed on the basis that he understands the implications that any aid given to any country, and more particularly to Pakistan, should not be directed against India and it should not be misappropriated for anything other than for which the aid has been earmarked.

Karan Thapar: Let me end by saying there are many areas where you have presumptions about the Obama administration.

Clearly, then the meeting that you are going to have in July with Hillary Clinton is essential because this will clear everything, remove the doubts and establish a proper, firm relationship. That is a critical meeting for you.

SM Krishna: It is going to be a very important meeting and I am looking forward to it. And in the meanwhile there would be occasions when in the international gatherings there are possibilities that the Prime Minister and President Obama would be talking to each other whenever an occasion arises.

So we believe that we will be able to convey to the US our concerns, anxieties and I am sure that they would understand.

Karan Thapar: Foreign Minister, a pleasure talking to you.

SM Krishna: Thank you very much. Thank you.