Click to play videoThe man accused of planning the 26/11 Mumbai attacks - Hafiz Saeed - has been released by the Lahore High Court. New Delhi says it is a sign of Pakistan's non-seriousness in probing the attacks. Is Pakistan continually living in denial when it comes to fighting terror? Pakistan High Commissioner to the UK, Wajid Shamsul Hasan and former diplomat M K Bhadrakumar join CNN-IBN on India At 9 to debate the issue.
CNN-IBN: Mr Hasan for an organisation that's banned by the United Nations and its chief is accused of being one of the main perpetrators of 26/11 as well as of other crimes, for that man to go free today, how does the government of Pakistan explain this? How can India and the world really believe the commitment Pakistan has given to bringing 26/11 perpetrators to justice after this?
Wajid Shamsul Hasan:The government of Pakistan has nothing to do with him. They arrested him and kept him for almost six months under detention and under the terrorism law of Pakistan you can only keep a person under detention of 90 days unless you have produced any evidence against them. Unfortunately no such evidence was produced against Hafez Saeed so he was released by the court.
CNN-IBN: Mr Bhadrakumar can we really believe that? The Pakistani government saying that it really has got nothing to do with this? Many would say that his arrest, detention and his release on Tuesday has all been a farce.
M K Bhadrakumar: In my opinion this is not the approach that the two countries can have. You cannot take a very highly legalistic view of a very explosive situation. What is the context in which all this is unfolding, we have to see that as well. India has shown exceptional patience and restraint over the last few months, even during a difficult election year. All parties have shown a lot of patience. And we have had no tangible signs of any progress on this matter from the Pakistani side.
CNN-IBN: But the High Commissioner just said, where is all the evidence? India has not provided any evidence, so is he taking a very legalistic view of things? Or is that the only view which Pakistan always takes as far as the Lashkar and groups like that are concerned?
M K Bhadrakumar: You see the High Commissioner is a very senior diplomat and I am sure he wouldn't quarrel with me if I said that India-Pakistan history didn't begin yesterday. When there are issues to be resolved, we have gone ahead and tried to resolve them by putting our heads together instead of taking a legalistic view. This has happened all through. Even in the '80s and the '90s. So I am sure the High Commissioner will agree with me when I say that it is an insufficient approach to take a highly legalistic view.
CNN-IBN: Mr Hasan it's already looking that there will be a situation where this court's decision would help the Jamaat-ud-Dawa - and possible even the Lashkar - plead its case in the UN and European Union against the restrictions that have been imposed? Where does that leave you in your so called war against terror that you are waging?
Wajid Shamsul Hasan: Well of course they can do it. They have been clamouring for it, so they are likely to do it. But the government of Pakistan is considering to go and appeal before the Supreme Court or a higher court so that the case can be reviewed. But it is yet to be decided and it can be done so only if evidence is produced. If India does not produce evidence, then there is no point of going to the Supreme Court because they will also come back with the same decision. But you can see how independent our judiciary has become after the Long March and everything. They had released even the notoriously well-known Red Mosque maulvi Abdul Aziz much to the dismay of the government and it was a setback the whole operation that we are carrying out against the terrorists in the country. So this is a setback for the Pakistani government as well.
CNN-IBN: Mr Hasan there seems to be a clear feeling that Pakistan did not press any strong enough charges against Hafiz Saeed, enabling the Lahore High Court not to set him free. Stronger charges would have perhaps shown greater sincerity on the part of Pakistan.
Wajid Shamsul Hasan: We are banking on India to provide us with enough evidence because if you remember Hafiz Saeed was running a charity organisation and he was as such not involved in any act of terrorism that we had any evidence against him. And even though the UN has banned the Jamaat-ud-Dawa, yet we arrested him and we have been pursuing this case very diligently but unfortunately we were thinking that India will provide with enough evidence to prove it before the court, but nothing came so far.
CNN-IBN: The High Commissioner is saying that Jamaat-ud-Dawa is a charitable organisation, does work for earthquake victims. Pakistan will simply not accept that here is a group that does fountainhead work for the Lashkar. What should India do now? Are India's hands completely tied? The elections are now over - now what does India do? Do we have greater options now than what we had two months ago?
M K Bhadrakumar: You see first and foremost Pakistan is hurting itself. This is sending a wrong signal to every militant group in Pakistan. And the biggest irony is that this is taking place at a time when heavy artillery, helicopters, gunships are fighting in one part of Pakistan. Why isn't Pakistan taking the matter to a court of law about these people who are operating in a tribal area?
CNN-IBN: Maybe by freeing Hafiz Saeed Pakistan wants to assuage some of the fundamental sentiment in the country which is angry with the manner in which the Pakistan Army is taking on religious groups in Swat. Is that a connection that you see?
M K Bhadrakumar: That is one possibility. Secondly, there is a long history. I remember in the early '90s when Benazir Bhutto took over against heavy odds, the day before that Pakistan expelled several diplomats in the Indian mission. Frankly speaking I was expecting something like that to happen when a new government took over and took an extremely reasonable, calm, rational position on India-Pakistan relations within hours of its coming to power.
CNN-IBN: Many diplomats are saying - why the surprise, India knew that Pakistan was going to act this way. Even with Hafiz Saeed under detention, nothing had really changed as far as our relationship with Pakistan was concerned.
M K Bhadrakumar: Yes, but you know the point is that we have to make certain distinctions here. I take this point from the High Commissioner and say we should wait till the matter goes in the Supreme Court and there will be a proper review of the matter and the gravity of the situation will be properly understood in Pakistan.
CNN-IBN: You are hoping that the matter will go to the Supreme Court but Mr Hasan, will that happen? Because as you see, there is a pattern. There is pressure put on Pakistan, you put people under house arrest - whether it's Masood Azhar, whether it's Hafiz Saeed - charge them and then allow them to quietly go free once the pressure, the heat is turned off Pakistan. That's the pattern seen in case after case.
Wajid Shamsul Hasan: We have already proved our case by saying that we did arrest him, we did charge him, we did put him behind bars for almost six months and you know for six months no evidence could be produced and again I repeat that we were expecting that India will provide us with enough evidence against him. To say that somebody is involved in something and he is not, then it is very difficult for the court. The court will go on the merit of the case.
CNN-IBN: Mr Bhadrakumar you were smiling when you heard Mr Hasan speak. I am sure over the last 30 years, you have heard Pakistan diplomats mouth the same lines - that look we have arrested him for six months and he was under house arrest and that is evidence that we are acting against terror.
M K Bhadrakumar: You see this organisation has been spotted and linked to international terrorism by the world body, the United Nations Security Council. This is not an Indian pointing fingers at, or accusing Pakistan. This is not the matter of an Indian security agency providing security this way or that way.
CNN-IBN: Is it time for the Americans to act? Someone like Hillary Clinton perhaps? Is it time for India to say that America should put pressure on Pakistan and say that a terrorist is a terrorist, whether he is in Islamabad or whether he is in any other part of the world?
M K Bhadrakumar: I think our minister acted perfectly. In the sense that what needs to be done, needs to be done firmly and unambiguously and we have underscored this point. We expect the Americans - who have a residual influence on Pakistan on such matters - to certainly point out to Pakistan that this will not do and that this is a common struggle, and that they are either in it or they are not in it.
(For updates you can share with your friends, follow IBNLive on Facebook, Twitter, Google+ and Pinterest)
 |
|
 |
 |
 |
|
More on IBNLive Right Now
MOST SHARED
PHOTOGALLERY
