Click to play videoHow does Britain view the standoff between India and Pakistan and beyond that how does it view the scourge of terrorism? Those are the two key issues Karan Thapar explored with British Foreign Secretary David Miliband on Devil’s Advocate.
Karan Thapar: Foreign Secretary, let's start with the India-Pakistan standoff in the wake of the Mumbai terror strike. The Indian Government has given a dossier to your government containing the information or the evidence that it has collected. What is your assessment of the contents of that dossier?
David Miliband: We are in absolutely no doubt about the origins of the attack in Mumbai last November. Those origins are in Pakistan and there have been some detentions in Pakistan, and they now need to lead to successful prosecution, we believe the evidence is there for that.
And I think it is important that I say one of the reasons for being in India this week is to show the solidarity and not just the sympathy of the British people with all of India who stood up against this terrorist scourge and who suffered such anguish.
Karan Thapar: You used a very important word just now: you said ‘we believe the evidence is there’. So do you see the dossier as containing evidence?
David Miliband: We have our own evidence which we have shown to the Pakistani authorities, and we believe that that is the right evidence on which to proceed—the Indian dossier that has been handed over is something that we are looking at. But I think what is critical is that the words of the Pakistani government—which are commitments to follow through on the perpetrators of these terrible crimes. It should be followed through into action.
Karan Thapar: You say you have your own evidence which you have handed over to Pakistani government. What sort of evidence is this?
David Miliband: Obviously, we don't go into that for a very simple reason: a court case is pending; it needs to take place.
Karan Thapar: But it has been said in India that some of the more clear clinching evidence has been made available to the Indian government and it did come from the British authorities. Would you confirm that?
David Miliband: Certainly not. I wouldn't go into that in any detail at all because India and Pakistan have proper judicial processes. They need to be followed through and I am not going to say anything that will compromise them.
Karan Thapar: It has also be said and reported that the phone numbers that the Indian Government has got—may be some of them are even in the dossier—as well as the locations from where the phone calls were made, both of those bits of information were made available by the British government.
David Miliband: Well you can put the question in all sorts of ways but it is very important that when we say that intelligence agencies should cooperate, we mean it. We should also be resolutely true to the notion that they must be able to communicate in absolute confidence and that is what I will stick to.
Karan Thapar: You have said that evidence has been made available to the Pakistani government. What response did you get from them?
David Miliband: As it happens, I was in Pakistan on the day of the Mumbai atrocities and then subsequently followed up in phone calls. We have had some good words from the Pakistani authorities. We have also had the detentions. But that needs to be translated into action because I know that Indians are sick of words.
They don't want words about following up to tackle people who have committed terrorist outrages. They want action and that is what I support as well.
Karan Thapar: What sort of actions are you specifically looking for?
David Miliband: The action, I think, falls into two categories. The short-term action: to take against whom those evidence are through the courts of justice and if they are found guilty, to make sure they are appropriately punished.
Secondly, there is a medium-term job and that is to root out the terrorist networks that pose such a threat not just to India, but to the fundamentals of the Pakistani state as well. And my message in Pakistan will be: don't just do a favour to Britain, which is threatened by terrorism that starts in Pakistan, don't just do a favour to India, which is threatened by terrorism which starts in Pakistan, do a favour to yourselves because terrorism has already claimed the lives of Benazir Bhutto and many other Pakistanis.
They need to tackle it for their own good as well as ours.
Karan Thapar: Let's go back a little in the story. Pakistan, after much contradiction and after a lot of confusion, has accepted that Ajmal Kasab, the terrorist in India’s custody, is a Pakistani but what about the other nine terrorists? Does Britain believe that the other nine are of Pakistani origin?
David Miliband: I am not going to get into any details other than to say that we are confident that the origins of this attack were in Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: The Indian Prime Minister has gone on record to say that there is enough evidence to show that the attack must have had the support of some official agencies in Pakistan. Does Britain agree with that?
David Miliband: We don't have evidence to show that the attacks were directed by the Pakistani government. What we do know, and this is public knowledge, is that the Pakistani government has had a policy towards Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT), under the previous regime of President Pervez Musharraf.
I think that it’s very important that the so-called carousel-and-engage approach is one that is changed, because it obviously doesn't work.
Karan Thapar: The Indian Prime Minister also has said that Pakistan has utilised terrorism as an instrument to state policy. Would you accept that?
David Miliband: I have no evidence of the Pakistani state directing terrorist activities. And I would never make that claim without that evidence. What I know is that Pakistan has a very serious terrorist problem.
Karan Thapar: When you spoke about the policy of carouseling – the relationship that existed during General Musharraf's time with the LeT – what exactly was that relationship?
David Miliband:It was an approach, I think, that I described it as. It was an approach which recognised that LeT did pose a threat but also recognised that they had to engage with the LeT.
I think the important message that comes out, especially since the Mumbai bombings, is that you have to tackle the roots of these terrorist organisations. If they want to play in politics that is one thing, but if they are going to use terrorist tactics that's beyond the pale then they need to be rooted out.
Karan Thapar: When you say 'approach', is that a euphemism for saying that there were links between the government of Pakistan in General Musharraf's time and the LeT?
David Miliband: No, an approach is a policy. It is a very clear way of describing it.
Karan Thapar: A policy whereby the LeT was utilised by the state for the purposes of the state?
David Miliband: I have been very, very clear in every answer I have given you. We do not have evidence that the Pakistani state directs operations or directed operations by the LeT. What is important is that we recognise that terrorism is a threat to Pakistan as well as to its neighbours and to countries like Britain. Secondly, that the roots of terrorism need to be addressed at the root which are economic, social, and political as well as security.
Thirdly and importantly, Pakistan needs to address the fundamental and political questions if it is to turn itself around. Also it is worth saying it needs the support not just of its neighbours but it needs the support of its international community.
I am proud to be in India as a friend of Pakistan as well as a friend of India. We have got to support Pakistan and those who want to see change in that country.
Karan Thapar:Jonathan Evans, the head of the MI5, has told the Telegraph that there are connections between the Mumbai attackers and Britain. Will Britain therefore seek access to some of the people detained in Pakistan or to some of the people identified in the Indian dossier?
David Miliband: I am not going to make any preemptive words or actions that are not sanctioned by or not determined by our independent authorities, that is something for them. What I can tell you about is that we are clear about the origins, we are clear that there is an immediate issue for the Pakistani authorities in terms of the prosecution and that needs to go ahead, but there is also the medium-term goal.
In the end, India cannot afford a cold war or a hot war with Pakistan, and Pakistan cannot afford a cold war or a hot war with India.
Karan Thapar: And all of that is taken for granted both in India and I assume in Pakistan, but let me therefore pick up on something that you said may be three times or four times in this interview: the clear connection of what has happened in Mumbai to Pakistan and to actors in Pakistan.
Now Pakistan has taken some steps which are viewed in India as cosmetic. Some people regard them as deceptive. How does the British government view the steps that Pakistan has so far taken?
David Miliband: A start, a start—that’s all they are. People are being detained or arrested and then released. In this case, there is a very clear onus on the Pakistani authorities to take the people who have been detained, to assemble the evidence to use it for prosecution, and if the people are found guilty, to make sure they are properly punished.
Karan Thapar: Let me put two bits of details to you. You say what Pakistan has done is a start but India looks at the fact and says that, for instance, the Jamaat-Ud-Dawa was supposed to have been banned under decisions and sanctions taken by the United Nation Security Council and yet the same organisation is organising rallies in Lahore, surrounded and escorted by the Punjab police. Its headquarters are functioning, its flag is fluttering and its armed guards are visible. Also, its weekly is bringing out vituperative articles about India.
Is that an effective implementation of the United Nation Security Council?
David Miliband: Obviously not.
Karan Thapar: Are you prepared to say this to the Pakistani government when you meet them?
David Miliband: I have very open discussions with the Pakistanis, which they take forward and I have said that publicly. The best sort of diplomacy is diplomacy where you are not saying one thing behind your hand privately and another thing publicly. Clarity and consistency should be there to say publicly what you are saying privately.
I think it is very important that we engage with Pakistan on that. I also think it is important that India engages on that as well.
Karan Thapar: Absolutely. But India says that it is difficult to engage with Pakistan because of the contradictory signals that we get. For example, they point out that their National Security Advisor (NSA) publicly accepted that Ajmal Kasab was Pakistani. But he was peremptorily sacked by the Prime Minister on the grounds that he had embarrassed Gillani and endangered state security. How do you respond to that one development?
David Miliband: I think it's a good point that the Indian government or Indian commentators cite. India must feel huge anguish, does feel a huge anguish. I know that from the meetings with the Prime Minister and his ministers. They were hugely anguished about the Mumbai attacks. There was also huge frustration about the turn of events in Pakistan.
Let's be honest about that. What I would say is that from a British point of view, we have a massive national interest in seeing Pakistan become a country where one can talk about prosperity, about security, about peace without people rolling their eyes. That's very important.
Karan Thapar: Can I interrupt and point out that India feels more than anguished. India feels that what it is seeing is the state of denial; what they call flip-flops or contradictory statements. Can you understand that to India this looks as if Pakistan, far from cooperating is actually trying very hard not to cooperate.
David Miliband: Oh yes! I can understand that. And I think it is therefore important that people like me from Britain, which itself suffers from attacks that originated in Pakistan, are absolutely clear about the responsibilities of the Pakistani authorities, all of them—in the government, the civilian government but also in the armed forces. We are clear about that.
Karan Thapar: And you will say this Foreign Secretary as bluntly and as clearly to Pakistani leaders when you meet them on Friday as you are saying to me today.
David Miliband: Yes.
Karan Thapar: There is no doubt on that?
David Miliband: No. In fact, I already have.
Karan Thapar: And you will repeat it again?
David Miliband: I will repeat it again. Now the question is do they follow through and how do they follow through. It is very important that we keep emphasising the need to do this for us, for you, but also for themselves. Because in the end, the threat to Pakistan comes from within the country and not from India.
Karan Thapar: Let me put to you two issues that Pakistan has repeatedly raised. First of all, they are asking for a joint investigative mechanism, which India as you know is extremely unenthusiastic about, given the state of distrust between the two countries today. Does Britain believe that a joint investigative mechanism makes sense or would it be impractical?
David Miliband: I think the two countries should cooperate but I don't adhere or specify the particular way in which they should cooperate. And so I think that the discussions about ministers or officials staying in contact would be a good thing.
Karan Thapar: The second thing that has been repeatedly said by the Pakistan Prime Minister is that he will not extradite any of the accused, but given that we are talking about people who are not accused of common and garden crimes but the heinous crime of terrorism, will Britain support India's request or demand for extradition?
David Miliband: We will support their prosecution under Pakistani law.
Karan Thapar: But not extradition?
David Miliband: Well, no, because they have broken the law in Pakistan. It is Pakistani law that they have broken as well as international decency and common sense.
Karan Thapar: But people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed have been extradited to America, and he is only one of many such. They were extradited without even due process of law, then why can't those who have actually killed in Mumbai be extradited to India?
David Miliband: I am not going to go into the ins and outs of the Pakistani government's constitutional position. What is important is that those who are accused of heinous crimes feel the full force of the law, whether in India or in Pakistan. Now the Pakistani authorities have detained these people. They have said that if there is evidence they should be prosecuted. I say there is evidence let them be prosecuted and if they are found guilty, let them be punished.
Karan Thapar: If these people are not effectively prosecuted or if there is such a delay that people begin to feel that Pakistan is simply dragging its feet, at that point of time, will Britain be prepared to support either economic or military sanctions against Islamabad to force the issue?
David Miliband: I don't think punishing the Pakistani people with economic sanctions is going to induce the change that is necessary; in fact it undermines precisely the kind of support that is necessary.
I think one of the things that need to happen in Pakistan is its own people engaged in a far deeper conversation about the nature of the threat that is posed to Pakistanis. What I believe is that the international community should make one thing absolutely clear to Pakistan – it is not just its intentions but expectations which should come out. And it should continue to do that without fear or favour. And that is what we are going to do.
Karan Thapar: But what happens if Pakistan ignores the international community. Beyond trying to make it clear verbally, is there any sanction to force Pakistan to act?
David Miliband: We will continue to use all the appropriate mechanisms, the appropriate ways of making a difference.
Karan Thapar: What is the other appropriate way other than simple verbal pressure?
David Miliband: Well, because, there are a whole range of relationships that we have with Pakistan. And there's a whole range of British engagement with Pakistan that I think can help demonstrate to the Pakistani government in all its forms that there is not just pressure, there is support for change in the way Pakistan operates.
Karan Thapar: But at the end of day, there is no stick that you can use?
David Miliband: If you are saying that is there a 'military stick' that I am going to use, then there is no 'military stick' that I am going to wield.
I think that there is a fundamental debate to be had in Pakistan—and you can see it because you are right. There are different statements that come out. What does that reveal? It reveals actually that there is a debate going on. And there is a debate between those who recognise that there is a serious need for reform in Pakistan. It's very important that the reformers win.
Karan Thapar: And if they are not winning, then what?
David Miliband: We carry on exercising the pressure, providing the incentives in engaging…
Karan Thapar You are asking India to be patient?
David Miliband: No, I am asking the Indians to do the right thing for themselves and for Pakistan; because a cold war or a hot war is not in Pakistan's interest and is not in India's interest either.
Karan Thapar: And what happens if there is another strike attributable to actors in Pakistan?
David Miliband: That is a very serious issue that we should preempt. And we preempted first of all by the sort of changes being made to India's defences and they have been put through in legislation by the government, which I believe has taken strong and decisive action since the Mumbai event. We do not need to wait for a further incident to know the severity of the threat that it has faced.
Karan Thapar: Foreign Secretary, how difficult, fragile and worrisome has Pakistan become?
David Miliband: I think fragile is a good word—fragile for its own people. They have got real economic crisis, which has led to an IMF loan. Fragile also, given its political seesaw between civilian government and the military rule. Fragile, thirdly and finally, because of the security dangers that terrorism originating in Pakistan poses to India, to Pakistan and to countries like Britain.
Karan Thapar: You spoke about seesawing between civilian and military rule. Where do you believe the centre of power in Pakistan lies? It lies with President Asif Ali Zardari, with army chief General Kayani or with the ISI?
David Miliband: Like any seesaw, sometime one side is up and sometime the other side is up. I think the entry into power of a civilian government led by President Zardari is a significant event, one which we worked very hard for. I don't believe the army under General Kayani wants to take over power.
Karan Thapar: Do you see that being the case for the foreseeable future?
David Miliband: I see no indication that General Kayani wants to be anything other than the Chief of the Army Staff.
Karan Thapar: What is your assessment of Asif Ali Zardari as President?
David Miliband: I think that the negotiation of the IMF loan and now its implementation is significant and good. I think the assembly of a strong coalition is good—or a stronger coalition than the people expected. I think President Zardari has tried to do the right thing, significantly in respect of Afghanistan, where relations were in deep freeze under President Musharraf but have now opened up. But also on the security front, I think he recognises in his heart – because of the tragedy he suffered with the assassination of his wife – that terrorism poses a big threat to Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: In India he is viewed as a man who says all the right things. He is hugely reassuring when he speaks to the Indian people in interviews but nobody believes he has the power to deliver. He may have the intention but either the army or the wider establishment checks him.
David Miliband: That is inevitable if you have been in power for six months. It is inevitable that people are going to ask questions, and that is right. That is why an issue like the prosecution of those detained after Mumbai is important.
Karan Thapar: Would you therefore say to the Indian government and the wider Indian people that they should be a little more understanding of the problem that Asif Zardari faces? That perhaps they should give him a bit more time, rather than look for immediate results and actions.
David Miliband: Well, understanding is a good thing compared to lack of understanding. I don't think I am here to plead for patience or for understanding. I think the Indian sense of urgency is right. But I tell you this: the urgency for economic, social, political and security reforms is felt by Pakistanis because they suffer from it as well.
Karan Thapar: And you believe that Asif Zardari feels it too?
David Miliband: This is a man who has lost his wife and he knows what a threat terrorism poses to Pakistan. He also knows the economy has been hard-developed and it needs to be nurtured.
Karan Thapar: Another issue on the horizon at the moment, not just involving India and Pakistan but this time involving Afghanistan as well, are comments made by US president-elect Barack Obama. He has gone on record to say that he believes the solution to the problem in Afghanistan lies at least partly in sorting out the Kashmir problem. Would Britain accept that, a linkage between Afghanistan and Kashmir?
David Miliband: In Britain, we talk about Afghanistan and Pakistan as a single theatre, as a shared geographical area.
Karan Thapar: He is talking about Afghanistan and Kashmir.
David Miliband: I am deliberately talking about Afghanistan and Pakistan. I think what is important is that President Obama and his new administration will be a new force in the global stage. They are going to see Pakistan as absolutely central to their investment in a decent government in Afghanistan, which is profoundly important not just for America but for the rest of the Western world. They are going to see Pakistan as a country that critically needs support.
They also know that the Kashmir conflict has been a source of flare-up for many years, and I think you have just held a very successful election in Jammu and Kashmir. I think the turnout was 61-62 per cent, a very significant development. I think many of us outside the region have felt that the composite dialogue and deliberations that have taken place over Kashmir are welcome. But that is not to say that they are part of the Afghan-Pakistan theatre.
Karan Thapar: So you don't accept the linkage between Afghanistan and Pakistan?
David Miliband: It depends on what you mean by linkage. It is a fact that Pakistan has a contested border with Afghanistan and contested issues in respect to Kashmir. What I am trying to say to you is that the Obama administration's breadth of vision about the problems of the region are not a threat to India.
They are not putting India in the same box, because I know from very serious contacts that the Obama administration would be talking about Afghanistan and Pakistan together and that is important.
Karan Thapar: President-elect Obama has said repeatedly that it is his desire to try and resolve the Kashmir issue and “to devote serious diplomatic resources to get a special envoy in there”. Does Britain believe that the time has come for either an American or an international initiative to sort out Kashmir?
David Miliband: That has not been our policy, no actually. We have felt that the composite dialogue between India and Pakistan is the right way forward—it is a bilateral issue. Let us listen to President Obama, which he will be in a week's time and what he actually says. Let us give him the space to explain what he means.
I haven't had the chance yet to discuss in detail what that idea might be but our position has been that the bilateral track has been good and it should be used.
Karan Thapar: Foreign Secretary, a pleasure talking to you.
David Miliband: Thank you very much.
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