Police stood by us on Rushdie: JLF Organiser

New Delhi: Jaipur literature Festival organiser Sanjoy Roy has claimed that JLF organisers chose to call off controversial author Salman Rushdie's video link even after the Rajasthan police promised protection. While speaking exclusively to Karan Thapar on Devil's Advocate, he admitted that it was the festival organisers who decided to call off the video conference with the author at the last minute despite the assurances of security given by the police.

Here is the full transcript of the interview:

Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. What is the real truth behind the Salman Rushdie affair at the Jaipur Literature Festival? That's what I hope will emerge from this interview with the producer of the festival Sanjoy Roy.

Sanjoy Roy, let's start with how you and your colleagues handled Salman Rushdie affair at the festival. Are you guilty of buckling under pressure from fanatics or local state authorities and not ensuring that Rushdie was able to speak freely either in person or by video conferencing?

Sanjoy Roy: You know in retrospect one can look at this, in a different light. Yes there was lot pressure that brought, to bear upon us both by a particular group of Muslim organisations, who were not in any way conducive to what was happening. And I wouldn't necessarily say or use the word fanatics and ofcourse by the state government, who had their own interest at heart. What finally got us to change or what finally got me to change my mind specifically, and all our colleagues is that, in last fifteen minutes that was 3:30 to 3:45, as the tension mounted in the police control room where we were sitting and trying to work out how to go ahead. I asked the police commissioner what's your stand and he said go for it, we have for every person whose in this venue who is perhaps going to make trouble, we have two plain cloth police persons. Meanwhile a thousands people have marched from one of the central parks and another two thousands from the Masjid and all city towards Diggi Palace. What changed my mind is when I walked out and I saw five thousands approximately sitting in the lawn. And then we realised that some of these people can get hold of chairs, which they may fling at the screen. The issue was even if one of those 100 or 120 or whatever people did any thing like this, the kind of mayhem that have ensued in this space would have let to either a stampede and certainly lot of people getting injured.

Karan Thapar: You said something very important in the middle of the your answer. You said the police commissioner told you go for it, in fact when you made the announcement of the cancellation, this is what you said "we were told by the authority that if wanted to go ahead they would continue to give protection". So what you are saying to me is that police didn't stop you?

Sanjoy Roy: The police stood by this from the very beginning, from the date that we have said that Salman was coming and the rhetoric started building up. We have had a number of meetings with the police commissioner and the IGs etc. And at every point of time they have said to us, you wanna do it, we are there and we are going to provide the security, we will double the security. And each day depending on the threat that they perceived, they changed a little bit of their strategy. I will give you an example.

Karan Thapar: I interrupt you, in other words they were at every point of time offering and giving you the adequate security you needed?

Sanjoy Roy: More then adequate security needed.

Karan Thapar: So in those circumstances, if you called up the video conference and I presume that you did it because you and your fellow colleagues were sacred not that the police was failing to provide protection?

Sanjoy Roy: Absolutely. I mean we were very clear that even if there was one incident of violence, obviously there would have been. And I just recollecting what happened, the police man on the spot asked the commissioner, can we use force and the police commissioner one point said no you can't, and they said we are not going to able to control these 100 or 80 whatever the number of people, who wanted to disturb the preceding by not being able to use force. And he said if you use force in this kind of situation, it is going to be the problem. Our issue was that even the one person that actually escaped the police.

Karan Thapar: I am coming back to my central question. The police as you said gave you more then adequate protection, those were your words.

Sanjoy Roy: Absolutely.

Karan Thapar: The police was prepared if necessary to use force, regrettably but necessarily if it were essential. At the end of the day you called off the video conference because you were worried, you were scared and you didn't want to take the risk. It wasn't because police who advised you or told you?

Sanjoy Roy: Absolutely. It was the decision made by us, knowing fully well that given the kind of rhetoric that we had received that one o'clock that afternoon, from including a senior Maulana who said 'for us this is Jihad, our young people will fight this to the end and whoever dies today, will straight got to heaven'.

Karan Thapar: I am underlining it once again, it was your decision not a police pressure decision?

Sanjoy Roy:Absolutely. I stand by that again and again.

Karan Thapar: And the police were prepared even at 3:30 on Tuesday for you to go ahead?

Sanjoy Roy: Even at 3:40.

Karan Thapar: In this case let me put this to you. Was the problem the nature of the venue Diggi Palace is a vast open area. It can take crowds of ten, twenty or thirty thousands, crowds can easily be infiltrated by mischief makers, making it very difficult If not impossible for the police to provide adequate protection. Was the venue, the problem?

Sanjoy Roy: No Karan, I mean we had CCTVs right through. So every time somebody who the police thought the mischief maker or had a track record of being mischief maker registers they and they were caught in camera. The police immediately tag them with a plain cloth person and who tagged them for the rest of the day.

Karan Thapar: That you said and you also said that you were scared that even if one of those created a disturbance, they would have to be use force that could led to the people hurt. But comes this would only be have the problem in the nature of venue of Diggi Palace. Was Diggi palace, its size, the type of crowd it could gather, the problem?

Sanjoy Roy: I think the problem is more, the festival is the problem.

Karan Thapar: Had it been within closed door, auditorium or in a cinema hall, it wouldn't have in the festival. So once again, was the location problem because it made it carnival festival?

Sanjoy Roy: Not at all again I am saying. The location wasn't a problem in that sense, what was the problem was the popularity of the festival.

Karan Thapar: We are saying the same thing in a different ways.

Sanjoy Roy: Ya.

Karan Thapar: It couldn't have been popular if hadn't been in Diggi Palace. The question I want to put is this, why did you not shift the Salman Rushdie event, the video conferencing on Tuesday, to a closed door locations? Then you wouldn't have the problem you had. You wouldn't have to call off it and you could have gone with it?

Sanjoy Roy: You know at the end of the day if you are going to shift that to a closed door location and have two thousand armed sniper outside house, how is that anyway ending up for freedom of expression?

Karan Thapar: Because the event would have gone through

Sanjoy Roy: The event went through anyway.

Karan Thapar: But event didn't went through.

Sanjoy Roy: The event went through because we telecast the interview irrespective as per planned.

Karan Thapar: It wasn't an interview given to the Jaipur Literature Festival.

Sanjoy Roy: It was an interview.

Karan Thapar: It was an interview given to a television channel

Sanjoy Roy: No at all Karan, this was planned with us. The interview was with Barkha, we told NDTV to give us the space in London to download this interview and this was our plan. It would have gone live irrespective...

Karan Thapar: Sanjoy Roy, your answers actually proves my point. If you believe that the Jaipur Literature Festival fulfill its mission by doing an interview on television, not at the Diggi Palace not within the festival, then just easily you could have shifted the Rushdie venue to a close door location or an auditorium and still fulfilled your purpose.

Sanjoy Roy: I don't think so, I don't agree Karan at all, I mean the festival is a festival. It's not a beast with the five different arms.

Karan Thapar: But if the festival can transfer into a television interview then of course it is a beat with five different arms.

Sanjoy Roy: That was planned, that wasn't planned...

Karan Thapar: But why wasn't plan be in fact shifted to a close door location. Where you could have had two to three thousand people, may be more depending upon the size of the people?

Sanjoy Roy: Where?

Karan Thapar: Are there no close door location in Jaipur?

Sanjoy Roy: Come on this is India, I mean you tell the one close door.

Karan Thapar: You are seriously telling me there is no other venue in Jaipur that provide security and allowed Rushdie to speak.

Sanjoy Roy: There isn't the close door venue of any size except for the Birla auditorium.

Karan Thapar: Well that's one then?

Sanjoy Roy: For about six hundred people?

Karan Thapar: Other that are bigger?

Sanjoy Roy: Karan there is no point on carrying this particular conversation.

Karan Thapar: Alright, I will take your word for it, others will have their. Let me come to the second aspect, why Salman Rushdie felt unable to come in person to Jaipur? Who communicated to him that there was a threat to his life? Is that you, the producers, was it the Rajasthan police, and was it the Rajasthan government?

Sanjoy Roy: The Rajasthan intelligence guys used to communicate to us and we used to communicate to Salman copying to the Rajasthan Chief Secretary.

Karan Thapar: So you were the people who spoke to him.

Sanjoy Roy: We emailed him.

Karan Thapar: But the police didn't speak to him directly.

Sanjoy Roy: No, at no point of time the police speak to him directly. They used to share with us the intelligent reports, we use to paraphrase it and send it to Salman making a copy to the chief secretary.

Karan Thapar: How detailed was the information the intelligence gave you?

Sanjoy Roy: They used to give us fairly sizable reports on what, whether.

Karan Thapar: Sizable means detailed?

Sanjoy Roy: You know they use to come in paragraph. They used to send two pages every evening that used to come to us and we used to discuss in the middle of the night.

Karan Thapar: So this was fairly detailed information?

Sanjoy Roy: Fairly detailed information.

Karan Thapar: Did it seem credible to you?

Sanjoy Roy: Karan I don't think I was in the position to judge whether information was credible or not credible.

Karan Thapar: I tell you why I asked because Salman Rushdie in his first statement actually expressed his own doubts about its credibility. Did you share those doubts?

Sanjoy Roy: Again I am saying I wasn't in a position look or examine whether they were credible or not credible. I am not a detective.

Karan Thapar: How come he felt, he was in a position to question his credibility?

Sanjoy Roy: That's for him to say not for me.

Karan Thapar: Did the Rajasthan police or the Rajasthan state government at any point of time ask Salman Rushdie or ask you to ask Salman Rushdie not to come to Jaipur?

Sanjoy Roy: Not at all.

Karan Thapar: At no point of time?

Sanjoy Roy: At no point of time.

Karan Thapar: They never once even suggested that he shouldn't come?

Sanjoy Roy: At no point of time the government ever said to us that do not ask Salman Rushdie to come. We shared with Salman Rushdie each of the bits of the information we receive from the Rajasthan IB. Which then let to, perhaps he shouldn't come, and in retrospective perhaps was the best decision.

Karan Thapar: Let me put this to you. Were the Rajasthan police and or the Rajasthan government prepared to give Salman Rushdie the security and protection he needed to come to Jaipur despite the threat?

Sanjoy Roy: The Rajasthan police have put into effect much of the security that was in the venue, keeping in mind Salman Rushdie's visit.

Karan Thapar: And was that in your eyes adequate security to give him proper protection?

Sanjoy Roy: You know Karan, one can hardly figure what is adequate or not adequate.

Karan Thapar: No, but as an organiser, you have a sense?

Sanjoy Roy: No. Let me answer that question directly. We know for example that when we went to the meeting with 22 Muslims organisations on the 18th of January. The kind of perception that we received not from all of them, 12 or 14 of them were extremely peaceful about it. But the four organisation who did sort of say that we are going to shoot or kill whatever. That kind of threat perception was the threat perception, irrespective of what the IB said.

Karan Thapar: No no, you are not answering my question. I didn't ask you about the nature of the threat perception. I asked you whether the Rajasthan police and the Rajasthan government were prepared to give Salman Rushdie adequate protection so that he could come despite the threats.

Sanjoy Roy: I think you would need to look at what is adequate security. I think that's the question that needs to be asked.

Karan Thapar: You are giving me the straight answer. You are answering a question with a question. Why you are not giving the straight answer?

Sanjoy Roy: In my opinion, if you are saying was the adequate security in whatever sense I know about security perhaps it seemed adequate. If there was crazy trying to attack somebody I suspect that crazy would have done it irrespective.

Karan Thapar: Did Salman Rushdie, despite the assurances of protection from the Rajasthan police, decide not to come because he didn't believe that they would do good job in protecting him?

Sanjoy Roy: That's the question you have to ask him not me.

Karan Thapar: Did you ask them that question?

Sanjoy Roy: We assured him that there would be enough protection but given the fact that there were seem to be evidence, that he would be targeted he took a decision not to come.

Karan Thapar: Now here you are giving a different answer, to what we have said when we were talking earlier about the video conferencing. There you said quit categorically that more than adequate security had been provided by the police. Here you are not prepared to say adequate security is provided. Did you answering a question with a question?

Sanjoy Roy: Karan on a video conference, what he is going to do. They are not able to shoot him on the screen, what they would have done is created mayhem at the venue. So it is two different questions and two different answers.

Karan Thapar: So when it comes to the physical presence, there are question marks about the quantity and quality of protection that was being provided. And perhaps Salman Rushdie didn't come because he didn't think the Rajasthan police will do adequate or good job protecting him?

Sanjoy Roy: You are saying it not me. So you have to ask Salman Rushdie what his perception was.

Karan Thapar: Two other quick questions, in 2007 when Salman Rushdie came to the Jaipur Literature Festival successfully, you did not advertise in advance that he was coming. And if I am right you handled Ayaan Hirsi Ali in 2010 in much the same way.

Sanjoy Roy: Absolutely.

Karan Thapar: This time three weeks in advance it was made known that the Salman Rushide was coming. Was that the mistake?

Sanjoy Roy: In retrospect, big mistake.

Karan Thapar: Who is responsible for that mistake?

Sanjoy Roy: It wasn't anybody being responsible. Salman felt that he wanted to come to India without hiding.

Karan Thapar: He wanted it known?

Sanjoy Roy: He did wanted it known, we hadn't have him on the programme for a while.

Karan Thapar: Was this humourous on his part or foolhardiness?

Sanjoy Roy: In retrospect, you know you can make any comment on that. But at the end of the day when author of his eminence wants to comes to a festival or agrees to come to the festival. I think the festival's producers and the directors have a duty on him to do what he suggests.

Karan Thapar: But you were reluctant to do it?

Sanjoy Roy: I was not in favour of doing it.

Karan Thapar: Did you advise against it and then given under his pressure?

Sanjoy Roy: No I didn't advice.

Karan Thapar: You accepted?

Sanjoy Roy: I accepted what he said.

Karan Thapar: But you do accept that this was the big mistake?

Sanjoy Roy: It was a tragic mistake.

Karan Thapar: And this is something he will keep asking himself. Was his humorous or foolhardiness because of it?

Sanjoy Roy: Again, you know I can't comment for him.

Karan Thapar: One last question on Salman Rushdie. Given that as far back 1990 he issued a statement expressing profound regret for any distress caused to the sincere believe as of Islam by the 'Satanic Verses'. Should he have issued the similar statement, now as a way of easing the situation?

Sanjoy Roy: Karan the point was this wasn't about 'Satanic Verses'. It was made to be 'Satanic Verses'. The festival never had programme 'Satanic Verses'. So why should he?

Karan Thapar: I am not talking about it, I am talking about Rushdie

Sanjoy Roy: No but why should he say that he was coming to discuss the adaptation of 'Midnight's Children'. At no point of time was any discussion on 'Satanic Verses'.

Karan Thapar: But it was the alleged offence he given through 'Satanic Verses'?

Sanjoy Roy: By whom?

Karan Thapar: But if he can once express profound regret.

Sanjoy Roy: Why should he? I completely disagree on that. I mean some people decided to take offence about his visit because he written 'Satanic Verses'. I mean it is ridiculous.

Karan Thapar: So there is no need to repeat the profound regret 22 years later?

Sanjoy Roy: Absolutely not. I mean whatever happened that happened, whatever they ban they banned. I mean life moves on as they say except for some people.

Karan Thapar: Sanjoy Roy let's come to the four authors who read excerpts from the 'The Satanic Verses' in support of the Salman Rushdie and then had to hurriedly leave Jaipur for fear of arrest. Were you and your organisation is guilty of failing to protect them in their hour of need?

Sanjoy Roy: Karan, A - The Jaipur Literature Festival is a platform for a programme that has been curated by directors of the festivals. Should or if any of these authors have informed us in advance that this were what they are planning to do, we could have advice them about the legal aspects of what they were going to embark on, unknown to us this was done we could only do what we did in the best interest of them and the festival. And that best interest has so far has kept everybody out of trouble to this point of time.

Karan Thapar: Can I ask you very specifically, who adviced them to leave Jaipur as fast as possible. Was that you, was the lawyer they consulted or was in fact the state police?

Sanjoy Roy: I don't think it was any of the above and at the same time it was the combination of all. What happened when I stopped the first lot of reading from happenings, when I stopped Amitava from continuing the reading and they came out later, there were some activities and the police were told. Police made the statement; they came to ask what did happen. At that point of time there was some confirmation there were some stuffs that went off in the television channels and unknown to us. And then second reading took place when the second reading took place we realised that there was a group of people in those venues who had come out and started making phone calls and asking people to come in to disturb the proceedings. The police then advised us to be very careful of the steps that we needed to take we consulted with the lawyers in terms of what was the legal issue involved in this etc. And that point of time it wasn’t clear and we jointly sort of spoke to the authors involved in terms of what was its take. And each of them took their own decision, it wasn't that anyone of said 'leave town'. Open a gun and said leave town.

Karan Thapar: I tell you why ask that question because Hari Kunzru has written about in The Guardian and this is what he has written "the Jaipur police commissioner arrived, interviewed us briefly and went away reassure that no law had been broken". So given the fact that the police commissioner.

Sanjoy Roy: He wasn't the police commissioner.

Karan Thapar: He says so?

Sanjoy Roy: I was there so he was not police commissioner.

Karan Thapar: Who ever it was, reassured no law had been broken. So why were they advised to leave?

Sanjoy Roy: Again I am saying they won't advice to leave.

Karan Thapar: You didn’t advice to leave?

Sanjoy Roy: No at all.

Karan Thapar: So if they say that they were advised by you to leave. They were misleading people?

Sanjoy Roy: Ya, the discussion were went around in to legality of the issue. In the first case again I am saying the first case of Hari Kunzru and Amitava Kumar, by the time we finish the conversation about them all they have to put to rest. Because they read from innocuous paragraph from a piece of paper which has be downloaded from internet etc.

Karan Thapar: So there was no need, you are suggesting to me for Amitava Kumar and Hari Kunjaroo to leave?

Sanjoy Roy: At that point, when the next slot of reading happens which was seen to planed in advance.

Karan Thapar: So Ruchir Joshi and Jeet Thayil readings made the situation worse for the earlier two as well?

Sanjoy Roy: They sort of compounded the situation for all concern then and us. Ya.

Karan Thapar: You know what your critic sa. Your critic say that infact there is no clear case that these four have broken the law because their no clear case that reading from 'Satanic Verses' is illegal. Infact a point made by Salman Rushdie himself, infact you advise them or pressurise them to leave because their presence was awkward and embarrassing. Secondly, because you wanted to remove an area of potential conflicts of the authorities?

Sanjoy Roy: You asked me two questions. So in terms of critics who ever the critics are I hope they will stand by these authors.

Karan Thapar: What about the criticism they make?

Sanjoy Roy: Again I am saying you know in retrospect they can say whatever. The court or the law will take its own course.

Karan Thapar: No I am not talking about the law. Did you advise them and push them or pressurise them to leave because they were awkward and embarrassing to have around?

Sanjoy Roy: But I have said that there is no point of time have this done. So I again maintain that there was no advice given to them by all sorts of people.

Karan Thapar: If you didn't advise them and pressurise them. Why did you require them to sign a statement that the Jaipur festival was not responsible for what they done?

Sanjoy Roy: Because the Jaipur Festival was not responsible for what they done. They knew what they done and they have done with their own accord on a platform which was not given to them to read from these books. Very clearly.

Karan Thapar: Once again Hari Kunzru writes about it. He says a lawyer appears with the festival organisers, drafted a statement which we were asked to sign, making clear that the festival was not responsible for the actions. That language and tone suggests that it happened without consulting them and they were left little choice but to sign it.

Sanjoy Roy: Karan they did something on their own accord and each of them claimed that they did it knowing fully well, what they were going to be doing. The festival has a responsibility to 258 authors, not one, not two, not three, not four.

Karan Thapar: That was your priority?

Sanjoy Roy: Our priority was the festival let no body have doubt on it. Our priority is the thousands of people who come to that venue to listen to people speak.

Karan Thapar: These four were the lower priority?

Sanjoy Roy: You are creating a controversy when none exists. Each author in that festival venue is our priority. Each person is as important as the other person not lower or higher.

Karan Thapar: Alright Sanjoy Roy those were my words but that implications many may agree with. Thank you very much indeed.

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