Click to play videoNew Delhi: Maharashtra Chief Minister Prithviraj Chavan on Friday made a startling revelation that he was cut off from his police force for almost 15 minutes after the triple blasts on Wednesday in Mumbai as the mobile networks were jammed.
"But for first 15 minutes or so, there was complete breakdown of communication which was shocking which was unacceptable, but we depended on mobile phones, our radio wireless communication system was the only back up, we had to depend on that, our state wide VHF network is not being used now, we're trying to rebuild that as a back up communication," said Chavan in an exclusive interview to CNN-IBN.
Chavan admitted that public anger following Wednesday's triple blasts in Mumbai was legitimate. He said that people are angry and asking why the government has been unable to stop Mumbai being attacked time and again.
Claiming that things are actually better than they were during the November 2008 terror strikes, Chavan also said, "See Rajdeep for anybody to say 100 per cent result, I think will be too ambitious to say. It is our endeavour to make sure that no terror attack happens in Maharashtra, no attack happens in Mumbai, that attackers are inevitably caught and punished, that our intelligence capability, that our forensic ability, that our security ability is best in the world and that we should we should spend whatever money is required to achieve that capability, whether it's training, posting or not interfering politically."
He, however, added that the government of the day has to ensure safety no matter who holds the power.
He also blamed the red tape for holding up buying of crucial security equipment like CCTVs and there were serious problems in police transfers and postings in the state which led to poor security and intelligence.
Below in the full transcript of the interview:
Rajdeep Sardesai: Joining us now is the man of the moment in many ways. Someone with one of the most difficult tasks in the country at the moment, the Maharashtra Chief Minister Prithviraj Chavan. Appreciate you're joining us here Mr Chavan. In the last two days, Sir, since these blasts have taken place, there has been anger on the streets of Mumbai and much of that anger has been directed against your government, against the politicians, but your government in particular. Do you accept that the anger is legitimate?
Prithviraj Chavan: The anger is legitimate Rajdeep, I think Mumbai has been attacked at a number of occasions repeatedly. People are angry as to why Mumbai. People are angry as to why we couldn't prevent it and I appreciate the feelings, the outpouring of anger. I mean we all are also angry. But the point is that the government will have to carry on with its tasks, we have to learn our lessons. I can assure you that after 26/11, whatever the systems were put in place, both by Central government and by our own government here, after the recommendations of the Ram Pradhan committee which went into the causes and what could be done, things are much better than what they were when the 26/11 attack happened.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir, you say things are better since 26/11, but there's also cynicism that little really has changed. Your Home Minister RR Patil was Home Minister in 26/11, Vilasrao Deshmukh who was then Chief Minister is a Cabinet Minister, no one has been held accountable that the political system doesn't hold anyone accountable. Has that changed? Will someone be held accountable this time?
Prithviraj Chavan: I think what we need to do is no matter who is in seat, somebody will have to be in the seat of power, somebody will have to govern, what we need to do is that the government of the day will have to make sure that we're better prepared to prevent any future recurrence, that the intelligence apparatus is in much better shape, that there is better sharing, whatever modernization plans that we have put in place are completed in time, that we get best equipment, best training, best facilities, for our police force and intelligence force. I think many of the things that I've said have been put in place. Maharashtra now has Maharashtra Intelligence Academy, the first state to have such a thing. We have specially recruited intelligence officers. We have specialized training from foreign experts. But I appreciate that in spite of all that, this has happened and since this has happened, anything else that I say will be taken as an alibi, as an excuse because people are angry, people have lost their loved ones, people are injured.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But would you accept Sir that there was an intelligence failure? Three serial blasts take place within 13 minutes, would you concede that there was an intelligence failure?
Prithviraj Chavan: No I think the Union Home Minister Mr Chidambaram has very clearly tried to distinguish between a failure and not getting right inputs, not having leads. Intelligence failure could be defined where there was some things which were obvious and which people fail to look at, fail to analyse or interpret. In this case, it is a fairly low level operation with easily available raw material, a very small group, not even a module could have put these devices together and individuals place them. Now there is a CCTV footage we've tried to analyse, we'll try to find out whether it was a coordinated attack, we routinely monitored electronic communications, nothing came up, there were no leads from Delhi as union Home Minister explained on Thursday. So I think it is difficult to define it as an intelligence failure, yes we need to increase our intelligence capability, our intelligence sharing capability that if there was any item on the net or anywhere else, any electronic media, it should have been picked up and analysed correctly.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You accept that it is possible that these were local modules. Do you believe this was a local operation and therefore, the Indian Mujahideen remains the prime suspect, some even suggesting that the Mumbai underworld may have tied up with some of these terror groups. Do you suspect that this was entirely a local operation done by the likes of Indian Mujahideen and possibly helped by the Mumbai underworld?
Prithviraj Chavan: No Rajdeep I would not speculate on who did it. This is for the investigation team that we've put in place under the leadership of Mr Rakesh Maria, who is the chief of over 80 years. The team which cracked the J Dey murder lead by Mr Himanshu Roy is assisting him, the Mumbai special crime branch, all our units helped and aided by National Investigation Agencies from Delhi, NSG from Delhi, all have been put together. We have created many different task forces and every little angle or every little possibility is being probed. We are not ruling out any possibility. I will not jump to conclusions at this stage.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You don't want to jump to conclusions at this stage and that is fair enough. But there is a pattern to Mumbai and it's stretched across 18 years, from 1993 to 2011, the city is repeatedly targeted. Why do you think Mr Chief Minister, Mumbai is so vulnerable. What is about Mumbai it's not just it being a financial centre, something else seems to have also gone wrong in Mumbai. Hasn't it?
Prithviraj Chavan: No I think Rajdeep if you put yourself in the shoes of a terrorist, he would cause damage where it hurts the most. Mumbai is the most crowded city. The locations chosen for Wednesday's attacks were very very crowded. So an explosive devise placed in an open ground in a less crowded would less damage than a crowded place, that is obvious. Mumbai is the financial capital, rich people live here. If you attack a place like Zaveri Bazar, rich people would be hurt a little, it'll hurt the psyche of the city, of the country. It is an attack on the country and therefore, people who are attacking choose those targets to cause maximum damage. That is why it's not because of lack of security in Mumbai, but because it is an attractive target. Gujarat has been attacked, Delhi has been attacked, Varanasi has been attacked. People choose targets for different reasons. Sometimes the target is chosen to create communal strife. So I think to draw a conclusion that Mumbai is being attacked because it is easy target, that there are lags in the system is not acceptable.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But I had last night on my channel Julio Reberro Sir, one of the most distinguished police officers that Mumbai had and he said the informer network in Mumbai has broken down, that you need to particularly reach out to the minority community and try and get them on your side to get this information. There used to be Mohalla communities that were set up after 1992-1993, many of those have completely collapsed in several parts of Mumbai. Do you concede that that informer network was, the Mohalla communities, the citizen-police relationship is breaking down in Mumbai somewhere.
Prithviraj Chavan: I would accept the fact that the interaction with various community groups should be better. But to say that informer network is broken down is not correct. The J Dey murder case was cracked only because of informer network. Maybe we need to strengthen the informer network in the areas where terrorists activities happen. IB is very active. The other intelligence agencies at national level are very active. Now after 26/11, there is much better intelligence analysis put in place. I'm happy to inform that after 26/11, many things worked, some did not. We're trying to find out why some things did not work. What worked, we are trying to improve that further.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir can I give you one example of something that didn't work, a couple of weeks ago, we did a series of stories on coastal security, how in various parts of Mumbai still the coastal security is vulnerable and how effective steps haven't been taken there. Would you concede that many of the recommendations of the Ram Pradhan Committee and all that was discussed after 26/11 has still not be implemented on the ground?
Prithviraj Chavan: Yes I agree that everything that was recommended has not been done. For example, there are situations like purchase of closed circuit cameras, they've not been installed. Their procurement is a problem. The coastal security, there was none earlier, now it is being put in place. Complete aid is not upto the mark here, but we have started putting the coastal security situation in place. Boats have come, we've got marine police stations, there is a training, as I said, we have set up a Maharashtra Intelligence Academy, the first state in the country to do that. We are recruiting specialized specialized officers for intelligence purposes, not just deputing for some time. There are some things happening. At the same time, police modernization programme has not moved as rapidly and as fast as we would have liked it to. I'm looking at it as to why it is becoming so difficult to procure equipment.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You're saying it is becoming difficult to procure equipment, so you are accepting modernization, CCTV cameras, for example, are a problem. These are genuine problems you are faced with?
Prithviraj Chavan: Yes, Rajdeep, purchase of security equipment whether it is the level of Minister Defence, whether it is the level of the Home Ministry in Delhi or various state police organizations, is difficult. People are put in to administrative duties for a short time, two-three years, nobody wants to take a risk of selecting a lowest tender or selecting specifications. Technology moves very fast, if you are selecting a CCTV camera every 15 days, every one month the newer equipment comes in. Procurement periods take years to complete and if you get equipment immediately, you're accused of buying obsolete equipment, and therefore, people are just afraid to take decisions. I brought this up with the Prime Minister, I brought this up with the Union Home Minister, they are all facing this problem at their respective levels. As a country we'll have to work together to see that we don't go by the lowest tender syndrome or anything, we have to get the best equipment for our security forces.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You're making a very important point, you're saying that the system needs to change to ensure that the best equipment is given to our police or forces, which doesn't quite exist at the moment in several parts, but Sir, Mr Reberro last night also made an important point about the politicization of the police force, how appointments at all levels, particularly in Mumbai, are done on political considerations. How do you break that? How do you change that? That's why people are raising troubling questions that nothing will change on the ground unless you are able to break down the politicization of the police forces also.
Prithviraj Chavan: Well, I think it's partly true, but Maharashtra is one of the only states which have a law on transpersonal postings. Sometimes, we have to balance. There is thesis, there is a theory that the ability to transfer an officer for not performing his duty is the inherent right of the senior officer. If you take the authority from that officer and say that the transfers will happen routinely, after a particular time, then the relationship between a junior officer and a senior officer gets disturbed. If there is a political interference and people are posted for political considerations or any other considerations, naturally the efficiency of the police force will be eroded. I think, I've heard stories in the past that there were serious problems in police postings, but I can assure you now those problems are not as evident as earlier. The Home Minister has been particular, to see the best officers are posted. But this is a human process, we need to improve further. Union government has a much better procedure of posting people based on merit. We need to bring that in all states. But I'm seeing to it that the task persons postings are done largely on merit. I admit that it's not a perfect system yet.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Mr Chavan we have spoken to a lot of people, the diamond bourses are now talking of moving out of a Zaveri Bazar or even an Opera House, moving to the suburbs of Mumbai. They are frightened to live in these congested areas which seem very vulnerable, like Zaveri Bazar to the terrorists. What will you tell them? Will you concede that their fear, their anxiety is genuine and they should maybe move out to the suburbs now, de-congest that part of Central and South Mumbai.
Prithviraj Chavan: Not only they should, they must. You see there is a brand new diamond bourge being created in Bandra Kurla complex, which I think is, for us, the best in the world. I don't understand why people have not moved from the existing complex, to the new Bandra Kurla diamond bourge. Maybe the cost is slightly higher, but there are definitely very good facilities. If there are concerns about security, we'll address them. But I urge upon the diamond community, I'll interact with them soon, and find out why they are not moving to the new facilities which has been a world class facility created in Bandra Kurla complex.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But Sir, you're saying let's decongest south and central Mumbai, particularly areas like Zaveri Bazar, that is the only solution. Are you, therefore suggesting that otherwise it's impossible to patrol and police any 24/7 365 days areas like Opera House and Zaveri Bazar.
Prithviraj Chavan: No Rajdeep I'm not saying that at all. See it is easy for you to say, decongest Mumbai. There are 80 lakh people living in slums in Mumbai. I would like to give them a decent and dignified housing, it's not an easy task. I only specifically talked about diamond bourge, for which an alternate location has been created. At least that should be moved to a new location. I'm not saying decongest everything. It is physically impossible to decongest the business areas of Mumbai. But what has been specifically created, diamond industries, polishing industries are very important for our country, for Mumbai, and, therefore, a facility has been created, they should move there as soon as possible.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir you also had just some 30,000 police officers in a city of 2.5 crore. What are you going to do about that and a number of them, citizens argue, are only used for VIP duty, that police constables instead of being used for active policing are instead used passive policing for VIP security. What would you like to say to the angry Mumbaikar who says it's time to change that?
Prithviraj Chavan: No, rajdeep, again, this is over exaggerated. I mean VIPs are people who have a risky job, who take risky decisions, they have to be protected. Whether it is a judge trying the Kasab trial, whether it is the Prime Minister of the country who has to be guarded by special SPG, or whether there are other VIPs who have taken decisions, there is a possibility of what happened to our leaders, when they take difficult political decisions, they have to play with their lives. So, therefore, protecting those who take difficult decisions is a fact of life. Now the only point is that the security provided to a person, whether it is a judge, whether it's a minister, whether it's a senior official, or whether it's a film star or a cricket or sports icon, security has to be provided but only based on the threat perception by experts and not because you're somebody very big, or not because of protocol, that because I occupy such and such position, therefore, I must get so many policemen. It's always a very difficult task to remove security from people who do not today face the same threat level, as they did, as some point of time. Rajdeep, the only point I'd like to make is that this is over hyped. I fully appreciate that we should not flaunt the officer just as a status symbol, but those who are to be protected have to be protected, but that has to be based only on the threat perception, the number of police people doing security today is far larger than few protectees, which include film stars, sports icons, judges and also ministers.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir but one fear which is being expressed is that due to rain in Mumbai, the evidence is being washed away. How real is that threat that as you try to piece together that investigation, rains that took place in Mumbai on Wednesday are hampering it, because the rains will wash out the evidence.
Prithviraj Chavan: Well, I've been informed by the appropriate authorities including Home Minister that the teams which came from Delhi, the NIA team, the NSG team, the forensic science people, our won people in Mumbai have collected forensic evidence that they need, you need just enough evidence like blood samples, the fragments of the explosives and devices, they have done that, and I think of course later on rains have probably washed away the remaining part of the evidence. But I have been informed that they have collected enough forensic evidence.
Rajdeep Sardesai: They've collected enough. So you're saying that rains have not washed out all the evidence, but could have washed out some of it, am I correct?
Prithviraj Chavan: No, no. Whatever was required was collected.
Rajdeep Sardesai: And Sir what about the suicide bomber theory? Is this also being actively explored by the ATS, the Maharashtra police? Because that's what the Centre seemed to indicate, that this was a possibility that there could have been a suicide bomber? Is that a theory being explored?
Prithviraj Chavan: See what was given to the media by the Union Home Minister on Thursday was that it was a bomb made with ammonium nitrate, that perhaps it had fuel oil, that it had a triggering device. Fragments of that triggering device, perhaps, when people talk of a circuit, there were fragments of that. To a lay person like me, if it was a remotely triggered device, then it need not have been carried personally on a body. If it was carried personally over the body by a suicide bomber, then he would have a switch to it, then there would be no need of a remote controlled device. So let us not speculate, of course all of us need answers, we need to find the guilty, we need to find out whether the person who blew up the bomb died himself, those answers we need fast, but let the specialists, let the investigators do their job, they will inform as they get some hard evidence, but lets not insist on a running commentary of what happened in the morning and what happened in the afternoon.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Fair enough. But the Opposition has been saying that your government is soft on terror, they have also picked up Rahul Gandhi's statement that yes, 99 per cent of the cases were able to avert a terror blast, but in 1 per cent, it's impossible. Some thought that was rather insensitive and seemed to suggest an inevitability that cities like Mumbai will be hit every now and then.
Prithviraj Chavan: Well, I'll not comment on this. It has been already commented on enough. I think we must take the sense of what he was trying to say, than taking it literally word by word. I think we all are faced with a unique situation based on the geography that we're located in, the historic problems that we are faced with, we have to do our best in preventing any action. I think the attacks can be prevented with good intelligence network, good technical support. Examples in western countries are before us. We can now afford to spend money on our security. We must protect the city which generates so much wealth, which generates so many jobs, which is helping us to make India a brand. And I think it is within the capability of the Indian state to do this. We just have to work harder at it.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But would you like to tell Mumbaikars today that look don't expect 100 per cent, you can't guarantee against a terror attack because after every attack, people are feeling angry and cynical, as I have been saying. Would you today reassure them that there will never be another terror attack or are you saying look we live in dangerous times, and in these times we will try and do our best. Is that what you're trying to say today?
Prithviraj Chavan: See Rajdeep for anybody to say 100 per cent result, I think will be too ambitious to say. It is our endeavour to make sure that no terror attack happens in Maharashtra, no attack happens in Mumbai, that attackers are inevitably caught and punished, that our intelligence capability, that our forensic ability, that our security ability is best in the world and that we should we should spend whatever money is required to achieve that capability, whether it's training, posting or not interfering politically. I'll not get into the percentages, let's try to do our best. We are living in difficult neighbourhood, difficult times, and as a growing country, rich country, we are a target of jealous neighbours. When the investigation is complete, we'll know whether there was a support from any outside agency or whether it was a national level operation or a state level operation. Let's try to do our best. We appreciate the comments that we receive from media, from experts and we'll analyse every single one of them. I'll also be meeting with Opposition parties shortly to tell them what has happened and get their inputs also.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Mr Chavan as you said terrorists try to target Mumbai because it's a financial centre. There's also a belief that they try to target Mumbai because Mumbai in a sense is communally sensitive. Do you believe this series of attacks over the years has divided Mumbai, that this whole cosmopolitanism of Mumbai is bogus and somewhere people are tired of hearing that and it is a divided city today, it is a scarred and divided city. Do you fear that?
Prithviraj Chavan: No Rajdeep I will not share with you perception that the cosmopolitanism is bogus. The fact that Mumbai is a cosmopolitan city is a fact and the terrorists who try to attack, they do so to create a communal divide. In spite of that Mumbai has not erupted into communal violence. It's to the credit of the people of Mumbai and some people say it is inevitable.
Rajdeep Sardesai: That's because people in Mumbai have no choice, they have to go back to work the next day.
Prithviraj Chavan: Rajdeep, that's again unfair to say that people have no choice. Whenever anybody else in the world is faced with an attack like that, people have to carry on their lives. So let's not make too much out of it. Yes comments were made about the resoluteness of Mumbai, which people are not happy about, I share their anger. But the fact that it's a divided city is not a fair comment at all.
Rajdeep Sardesai: My final question to you Sir, this has been your first big challenge really, since you took over 8 months ago, what's the biggest learning in the last 48 hours as a Chief Minister/
Prithviraj Chavan: I think it's important that we give confidence to our police forces. I think it's important that we work as a team at a political level, we must appreciate what has worked since 26/11, we should also learn from things that went wrong, for example, something that I personally was worried that the moment I got the information I was at the Mantralaya meeting without appointment, I keep an hour to meet people without appointment, and I got a message that some blasts have occurred. I quickly wrapped up my interaction and immediately rushed to the control room in Mantralaya which was set up after 26/11 and I was there till about 3 o clock and it was very easy for me to monitor everything that was going on. But for first 15 minutes or so, there was complete breakdown of communication which was shocking which was unacceptable, but we depended on mobile phones, our radio wireless communication system was the only back up, we had to depend on that, our state wide VHF network is not being used now, we're trying to rebuild that as a back up communication. I spoke to the national security people yesterday and we are putting together parallels that I can't talk about in great detail, but we're trying to put up an additional secure network so that the phones which got jammed in the first 15 minutes, that we were not able to talk to top officials, unnerved us as they could not be accessed on landlines, mobiles, so we had to fall back on the wireless equipment that was the first level of contact.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You're giving us a huge revealation. You're saying for first 15 minutes, the Maharashtra CM was not in touch with top police officers. That means that the lessons of 26/11 have still not been learnt.
Prithviraj Chavan: No, rajdeep, that's a fact and this was being shared on the first day with everybody, the mobile telephone network got jammed. We could not use landline as people were moving, and so we had to depend on wireless network for first communication. Even if the wireless network was there with the police, their first responsibility was to take the injured to the hospitals, what worked was the control room in the BMC. 21 ambulances were dispatched. The people were moved to hospitals very quickly and we were able to save some lives.
Rajdeep Sardesai: My final question. What would you like to tell the angry Mumbaikars or a Shobha De who was on my programme yesterday fulminating against politicians to the aam aadmi of Mumbai who really feels that he doesn't know what the next day will bring. Ae Dil ha mushkil jeena yahaan, zara hatke, zara bachke, ye hai Mumbai meri jaan. What would you like to tell that Mumbaikar and the likes of Shobha De?
Prithviraj Chavan: As I said, I share the anger, I share the frustration. We're trying to make sure that whatever we said we'll do, is installed, is purchased, people are trained, people are recruited, that the best people are put in the best jobs and that we immediately crack this crime to deter people who want to create a mischief and run away. They will be caught, law will see to the end of it. I will like to assure the citizens of Mumbai that I as the CM will lead the efforts to put credible security system in the state.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You say law will take it's own course but in the case of an Ajmal Kasab, there is anger that he is someone with whom the law is taking an unusually long course.
Prithviraj Chavan: People are angry I appreciate that. But we have a Constitution, we have a system of law. It is fir the people to change that if they want a different system. Current system allows every person who is accused of a crime in the country, a due process of law, which means appeal right upto the highest levels. We cannot have a kangaroo court, we'll have to change laws for it. This country works with the rules of law, yes, it takes time, and we get angry about it. What should be appreciated is that the Kasab trial was concluded in the state in the fastest possible time. The other things are not in our hands. It is for the next level of appeal and finally upto the Presidential pardon, that process has to be done at appropriate level. But the fact that Kasab was convicted in this state, the shortest possible time should be appreciated.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Okay, I think Prithviraj Chavan you've answered virtually each one of our questions. I appreciate your joining us. Over the last 48 hours, you've taken charge in a sense of Maharashtra. Thank you so much for joining us in what's been a troubled time for you as a Chief Minister. Thank You.
Prithviraj Chavan: Thanks Rajdeep.
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