Click to play videoKaran Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. Is Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh indiscrete and raucously outspoken or is he a much misunderstood man. That is the key issue I should explore today with Digvijaya Singh himself. Mr Digvijaya Singh let us start the comments after the recent bomb blasts in Mumbai. You said one can't rule out the hand of Hindu outfits. What prompt you to say that?
Digvijaya Singh: No! I never said Hindu outfits. I just repeated the words, what honourable Home Minister had said in a press conference that we can't rule out any possibilities.
Karan Thapar: The Indian Express and several other papers quoted you to say, "You can't rule out the hands of Hindu outfits." Are you saying these papers are wrong?
Digvijaya Singh: Absolutely wrong. Show me the byte. There is a byte I had given to Aaj Tak and show me on that byte where I have mentioned it.
Karan Thapar: So why then you didn't create an effort to correct this false impression. After all repeatedly every paper has quoted you saying this, yet you haven't done anything about it.
Digvijaya Singh: This is what is happening, I am being misquoted out of context and being targeted unfortunately.
Karan Thapar: So this is an example of misquoting and targeting?
Digvijaya Singh: Absolutely! Yes!
Karan Thapar: But why did you not correct it?
Digvijaya Singh: I have said so in my interviews, if you see the "Times Now" interview I have corrected my self. And in other places also where ever I was asked this question, I have said, I have never said what is being attributed to me. And I sometimes feel why BJP has reacted so violently.
Karan Thapar: Because they object to what you are saying. Let me come to a second example that would help answer your question. You also have accused the RSS of being a bomb making factory. On what basis did you make that statement?
Digvijaya Singh: I have been saying this since 2002, when some VHP people were arrested in a case of a bomb being thrown at a temple in Mhow cantonment area in MP. And the MP police investigated and arrested four people out of six and they themselves accepted the fact that they were making bombs at a certain place.
Karan Thapar: So your evidence of saying that RSS is a bomb making factory is that some members of VHP have been arrested.
Digvijaya Singh: Not only that. In Nanded in 2006 at the house of RRS leader, two RSS workers died while making bombs. Then again in 2009 in Kanpur, two RSS workers died while making bombs.
Karan Thapar: So there have been two or three instances were RSS people have been involved in making bombs, if that leads to the conclusion that handful of RSS people are involved in bombs making therefore RSS as a whole is a bomb making factory. Then by the same token and logic, the fact that Congress supporters, Congress members and even Congress MPs were involved in the 1984 Sikh killings, leaves to the conclusion that Congress is a Sikh killing party. One logic applies to the other.
Digvijaya Singh: No, I think you got it all wrong. You see I have said this on evidence that Sangh has been involved in training people how to make the bombs. I never said RSS is a bomb making factory.
Karan Thapar: No, the exact words in the papers were " bomb making factory."
Digvijaya Singh: This is what I'm saying, please show me a byte where I have said that.
Karan Thapar: But it doesn't matter whether you have said bomb making factory or people involved in training how make bombs it comes to the same thing.
Digvijaya Singh: I stand by that and not only that, I have been accused of that and there has been a case filed against me by the RSS and when I put forward the evidence they withdrew the cases.
Karan Thapar: Before we come to the evidence and I very much would like to talk about the evidence, I want to question the logic by which you come to the conclusion that the RSS is a bomb making factory. If in handful of cases members of RSS are involved in blast in places like Ajmer, Mecca Masjid, Malegaon, Samjhauta Express that permits you to the conclusion that the RSS is a bomb making factory then by the same token and logic, the Congress members were involved in the Sikh killings of 1984, must leave to the conclusion that the Congress is a Sikh killing party. That logic has to apply.
Digvijaya Singh: That logic is not comparable.
Karan Thapar: Why is it not comparable?
Digvijaya Singh: It was at the spur of the moment because of the emotional anger in the Indira Gandhi killing, so you can't compare them. This is a cold blooded thing and consistently being happening.
Karan Thapar: You say what happened in 1984 killings was the spur of the moment.
Digvijaya Singh: I'm not justifying that.
Karan Thapar: I know you are not justifying that but you are saying it was the spur of the moment and the spontaneity makes the difference. Rajeev Gandhi six weeks later, no longer the spur of the moment on 19th November said, when a big tree falls, the earth shakes. That's cold blooded justification.
Digvijaya Singh: It is not a justification.
Karan Thapar: It sounds like to me.
Digvijaya Singh: It doesn't and it is not. He has merely given his views because of the emotional outburst of thousands and millions of people who had great hopes with Indira Gandhi.
Karan Thapar: Digvijaya Singh, the truth is today's Congress leaders are facing the cold blooded cases, not just Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar but Kamal Nath faces a court case in America.
Digvijaya Singh: Well where is the evidence? If there has been any evidence, why haven't they been convicted?
Karan Thapar: The case is carrying on.
Digvijaya Singh: That makes a very poor reading of our judicial process.
Karan Thapar: Well the same logic would apply to the RSS as well. Their cases continue, no one has been convicted. If it is a poor judicial system as an excuse for the Congress, it's the same poor judicial system as an excuse for the RSS.
Digvijaya Singh: No, here it is done in a cold blooded manner and there are instances, I have told you four instances where RSS' people have been killed making bombs. One was in Neemachand in 1992, 2002 Mhow, 2006 Nanded and 2008 or 09 Kanpur.
Karan Thapar: I will accept but the audience have to judge for themselves your explanation and your distinction between 1984 and RSS. In the case of RSS it was cold blooded and in the case of 1984 it was spontaneous. But that's not where your changes and taunting of the RSS ends, you have gone further. You have said and I quote, if they want evidence of Sang's involvement in terror activity, I have got the evidence. Which evidence have you got?
Digvijaya Singh: Which I presented in the court in Gwalior.
Karan Thapar: Give it to me, share with us.
Digvijaya Singh: I'll give it to you.
Karan Thapar: Share with us now.
Digvijaya Singh: Well I don't have it at the moment but I can give you the evidence which is a video recorded evidence where they have accepted it.
Karan Thapar: Where the RSS members have accepted it?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes!
Karan Thapar: Who are the those RSS members?
Digvijaya Singh: I don't have the names now but I can give you after the interview, I have got it on my mobile.
Karan Thapar: You have names of RSS members who have accepted their involvement in terror activity?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes and Mr Sunil Joshi, who was killed in 2007 was the master brain behind the terror activity perpetrated by the Sangh activists. He also the part of the Mhow bomb throwing incident and he was finally killed by RSS workers themselves and the Madhya Pradesh police have also accepted it.
Karan Thapar: During the actual interview I'm doing at the moment, I can't stop and allow you to show the evidence but I will say that the channel will take that evidence and put it on air so that everyone can see. Will you make it available to us?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes just now.
Karan Thapar: Tell me something, in your eyes and you are a senior politician, is this a clinching evidence, is it circumstantial or is it just suggestive?
Digvijaya Singh: Well it is a confession. A confession before the court of law.
Karan Thapar: From whom?
Digvijaya Singh: From the accused.
Karan Thapar: What's the name?
Digvijaya Singh: I'll give you the names. Four names I've got and I'll give it to you.
Karan Thapar: You said you have made it available to the court but have you made it available with the police as well?
Digvijaya Singh: It's already with the police. It is a recorded statement with the police.
Karan Thapar: Have the police acted on it?
Digvijaya Singh: They were acting on it but then the change of government took place in Madhya Pradesh and since the case is closed.
Karan Thapar: So you are saying that the succession by the BJP after your government lost in 2003 has meant that the evidence that you had against the RSS haven't acted on?
Digvijaya Singh: Absolutely correct.
Karan Thapar: You are saying that the BJP is preventing the police acting?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes, yes and yes.
Karan Thapar: In other words you are accusing the BJP government in Madhya Pradesh, perhaps Mr Chauhan the present chief minister, of interfering in police action.
Digvijaya Singh: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Is that a responsible statement or are you saying it irresponsibly?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes absolutely responsible statement and won't go back on it.
Karan Thapar: It is a very serious charge you are making.
Digvijaya Singh: Yes it is a very serious charge and I have made it earlier as well.
Karan Thapar: Why have you not then raised it to higher levels? If you have given it to the court and the police and the government is intervening, why haven't you asked the central government in Delhi, why haven't you gone to High Court in Madhya Pradesh, why haven't you gone to the Supreme Court?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, as far as I'm concerned I'm a political man, I have mentioned this to government of India, I have discussed this with Home Ministry.
Karan Thapar: Is Mr Chidambaram aware of what you are saying?
Digvijaya Singh: Absolutely yes.
Karan Thapar: What has he done?
Digvijaya Singh: I'm coming to that. Sunil Joshi's murder case is another example where the Madhya Pradesh police has closed the case, then we raised this issue with the government of India and when the ATS Rajasthan caught the people involved in the Samjhauta Express blasts and then they realised that the heat is on then the Madhya Pradesh police which had closed the case of Sunil Joshi reopened the case and arrested few people.
Karan Thapar: In other words you are taking the credit of the reopening of the case?
Digvijaya Singh: I don't take the credit but I raised the issue.
Karan Thapar: You have also, as you told me few moments ago, informed P Chidambaram how the Madhya Pradesh government perhaps Mr Chauhan, the chief minister, is interfering and preventing the police taking action on evidence you have given. What has he done? He is your Home Minister.
Digvijaya Singh: Well Sunil Joshi has now been transferred to the NIA, that itself is he has acted on it.
Karan Thapar: Mr Chidambaram did that?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Is he also going to act on the other evidence that you have given him and which you are going to make available to us after this interview?
Digvijaya Singh: I will just now give you the names but about this case I haven't raised with Mr Chidambaram but Sunil Joshi's case I have raised with Mr Chidambaram.
Karan Thapar: Will you raise this with Mr Chidambaram too?
Digvijaya Singh: Well it is an old case of 2002 but I will raise it Mr Chidambaram.
Karan Thapar: Let you now explain you have given us brand new revelation about the evidence you have which you'll make us available about the linking RSS to terror and also how the Madhya Pradesh government under the BJP has fail to act, how you petitioned the Home Minister, how he has taken action and how you insist he take more action. The problem is, many people turn around and say that Digvijaya Singh: is communalising terror. Worst still they say he is doing this because he wants to win the Muslim votes for the UP elections next year. How do react to that charge against you?
Digvijaya Singh: I absolutely deject that charge. People, first of all who have communalise it, are people like LK Advani who went to the Prime Minister and a delegation when the ATS Maharashtra arrested six people - Pragya Thakur, Dayanand Pandey and others in the Malegaon blast. The whole BJP went in delegation to the Prime Minister. Weren't they communalising it? On the contrary I have always put communal Hindu and communal Muslim on the same footing. As a chief minister I have taken action against communal Hindu organisations and communal Muslims organisations.
Karan Thapar: Explain this to me, if what you say about yourself is correct then how come when you made your recent statement about the Mumbai blasts, the Congress spokesperson Manish Tewari distanced the party from you. He actually said and these were his words, 'it would be better if you don't question him, he doesn't want to answer'.
Digvijaya Singh: He is absolutely right. Why would he answer for the question which I have put?
Karan Thapar: But the problem is he went further, he even in a sense admonished you.
Digvijaya Singh: Well I don't take his admonishment, I only take admonishment from my Congress President.
Karan Thapar: Let me quote his words cause presumably he is a spokesman for Congress President as well not just the party, he said, we do a great disservice to the country by not allowing investigation and pan out an conclusion and then he continued and said, unnecessary speculation and communalisation of terror doesn't help.
Digvijaya Singh: I wish he has read or seen my statement. I said: " let us not interfere in the investigation by the Maharashtra police and the NIA. We cannot rule out any possibility." Where am I interfering in it, where am I communalising it?
Karan Thapar: In other words Manish Tewari said without fully knowing what you have said, he shot his mouth off without knowing what your full position was.
Digvijaya Singh: I wish they had seen what I had said.
Karan Thapar: So now you are admonishing him?
Digvijaya Singh: He is a personal friend and I'm not admonishing him.
Karan Thapar: But he went further and said of you, it only tantamount of rubbing salt of the wounds of those who have to carry cross for the rest of their life.
Digvijaya Singh: Well I'll check up Manish Tewari that why did he made such a strong statement but I stand on what I have said and for god sake Karan please see what I have said. I have said that I would not like to interfere in the investigation and at the same time you cannot rule out any possibility. Now if that kind of statement is coming from me, is it communalising the situation?
Karan Thapar: One other thing, you also suddenly begun hitting people. Last week it was alleged that you in JNU slapped a certain Jayant Aggarwal.
Digvijaya Singh: Absolutely wrong. I haven't slapped anyone.
Karan Thapar: So the story that you have slapped Jayant Aggarwal is wrong?
Digvijaya Singh: Jayant Aggarwal, I don't know the man and haven't slapped anyone and I contradict that also.
Karan Thapar: In June it was alleged that you kicked a man who tried to throw a shoe at Janardhan Dwivedi.
Digvijaya Singh: Well I did not.
Karan Thapar: So that's also false?
Digvijaya Singh: Absolutely false.
Karan Thapar: So these are all examples of press spreading false stories?
Digvijaya Singh: Absolutely false stories against me with a bias.
Karan Thapar: You said you have the evidence liking the RSS with terror, what is that evidence share it with me.
Digvijaya Singh: Well first of all in Mhow, where the RSS activist threw bomb at the Swarag Mandir, six people were involved, four of them were arrested, one Shekhar Chaudhary, son of Mange Lal Chaudhary in Mhow. Second, Satya Narayan, son of Parmeshwar Parmar, village Harsola Khurd in Mhow. Third, Mukesh Patidar, son of Julelal Patidar in Mhow. Fourth Rajesh Mishra, son of Sheetal Mishra in Pitampur.
Karan Thapar: Who were the other two?
Digvijaya Singh: The other two were Ramji Kalaksara, who is still absconding, who is involved in all the bomb activities which I have just highlighted and the sixth person was Sunil Joshi, who was the master brain about the blasts, who is now murdered by the RSS workers and even the Madhya Pradesh police have accepted it.
Karan Thapar: Now you also said that you have certain confessions. Where are those confessions?
Digvijaya Singh: Well those confessions are on a disk which is at my office and I will give it to you.
Karan Thapar: And you will give it to me?
Digvijaya Singh: I will give it to you.
Karan Thapar: And the channel will have your permission to play if it deems it fit to play?
Digvijaya Singh: It's your pleasure.
Karan Thapar: This therefore is the totality of the evidence that you have.
Digvijaya Singh: Not only that. There were other also. In Nanded in 2006 at an RSS activist's house a bomb went off when they were making bombs. In Kanpur in 2008, two RSS activists were killed while making a bomb.
Karan Thapar: So all of this is evidence that you have?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes.
Karan Thapar:You actually have it?
Digvijaya Singh: See Nanded is evidence by itself.
Karan Thapar: But you have the evidence, you have the details?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes.
Karan Thapar: And you will make it available?
Digvijaya Singh: Absolutely.
Karan Thapar: Alright. I can't pursue that any further because till you make the evidence available I can't question you about how good it is, how weak it is, how cringy or convincing it is. But, I want to ask you a simple question. You've been a chief minister, you are general secretary of the Congress party, you may well end up one day even as a cabinet minister, but really who knows. You clearly have a mind that can judge the quality of evidence, is this clinching evidence? I have asked it earlier, I am asking it again. Is it clinching?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes it is clinching.
Karan Thapar: And it can secure the conviction in a court if law?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes.
Karan Thapar: You're sure of that?
Digvijaya Singh: Absolutely and I have never gone back on what I have said.
Karan Thapar: Alright. Let us leave that there. I want to now put to you the way the public perceives you. People say that each time Digvijaya opens his mouth he puts both feet straight into it. I don't want to be offensive, but people even say, Digvijaya Singh: has got verbal diarrhea that he talks first, he thinks later and he then ends up either having to regret what he said or explain it.
Digvijaya Singh: I have never regretted what I have said.
Karan Thapar: Well you expressed regret when you criticised the Home Minister. You called him arrogant, you called him rigid and you then actually expressed regrets.
Digvijaya Singh: No, that was on personal basis. But on facts I have not regretted any of my statements. I have stood by every statement I have made and every statement I have made is out of a considered view.
Karan Thapar: Well even when recently you referred to, perhaps sarcastically, to Osama bin Laden as 'Osamaji', you had to explain what you meant.
Digvijaya Singh: If Karan, if you miss out my first statement, my first statement is "I congratulate United States of America for eliminating a dreaded terrorist", why wasn't this played by the media? I am charging the media for not playing the whole statement.
Karan Thapar: You've charged the media several times for distorting what you are saying
Digvijaya Singh: Because they have, some people in the media, have got a bias against me and is reflected in all those statements where they are misconstructed, misconstrued and I am targeted.
Karan Thapar: You say some sections of the media have a bias against you. The Hindustan Times in a lead story referred to you as the loose cannon, they called you a secular Praveen Togadia, is that an element of malice?
Digvijaya Singh: Well how can a secular person be Praveen Togadia?
Karan Thapar: What about being a loose cannon?
Digvijaya Singh: But who wrote that article?
Karan Thapar: Well if it was the lead of the paper it went with the name of the editor.
Digvijaya Singh: I would question the secular credentials of the writer.
Karan Thapar: You would question the secular credentials of the writer. The writer is probably, at least technically; it had to be the editor of the Hindustan Times.
Digvijaya Singh: Well I will find out, but my problem is, Karan, I don't read newspapers.
Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. Let me very quickly draw your attention to the three consequences of what people consider Digvijaya Singh so to speak. First of all, many in your party are weary of you, some are critical of you, others privately say that you are creating problems for the party. Does that worry you?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, not at all.
Karan Thapar: Not at all? You don't care what your party says or thinks?
Digvijaya Singh: The party hasn't called me anything like that and they have not questioned my statements.
Karan Thapar: They are speaking behind your back.
Digvijaya Singh: Well they have a right to do so.
Karan Thapar: They have a right to do so?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Alright. A second problem – people see you as an advisor to Rahul Gandhi, some even say you are his mentor. They say that when Digvijaya speaks Rahul supports what he's in fact reflecting
Digvijaya Singh: Karan absolutely wrong. I am neither an advisor nor a mentor to Rahul Gandhi.
Karan Thapar: Because you are perceived as his advisor that when you speak people say you are speaking on his behalf. When you get into controversy it gives Rahul a bad name.
Digvijaya Singh: Again I fail to understand Karan. First of all you make a wrong assumption then you have a wrong perception and then you blame it on me. When did I say I am an advisor to Rahul Gandhiji? Who has said I am a mentor to Rahul Gandhi ji?
Karan Thapar: So you are not giving Rahul a bad name by association?
Digvijaya Singh: But, if no one has asked me this, no one in my party has ever said this to me.
Karan Thapar: Alright finally, the government on critical issues needs BJP's support to get legislation passed. I am not just about the Women's Reservation ill and GST, I am talking also of small things like the Insurance Bill or big issues like the Lokpal. Each time you taunt and target the BJP that support from the BJP becomes more unlikely. Are you doing a disservice to your own government's ability to deliver a legislation?
Digvijaya Singh: Well I will only say this. The Congress party can never compromise with BJP ideologically.
Karan Thapar: Even if this is at the cost of the government legislations being passed by the Parliament?
Digvijaya Singh: What is more important is the ideology and the content in politics.
Karan Thapar: Ideology before government deliveries?
Digvijaya Singh: Absolutely yes. After all what will be the manifesto? What is politics? It is based on ideological content of each political party.
Karan Thapar: Alright. So you are going to let the government say to the country " I am sorry we couldn't deliver any of the promises we made as ideology came first.”
Digvijaya Singh: It has to come first in politics.
Karan Thapar: And the people of India will accept that?
Digvijaya Singh: it is for the people to accept or reject.
Karan Thapar: My last question before we run out of time. Have you ever been told by Sonia Gandhi 'please don't talk so much'. Have you ever been 'gagged' as the press say?
Digvijaya Singh: Well the only time she told was when I wrote that paragraph on Chidambaram ji.
Karan Thapar:She ticked you off?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes she did
Karan Thapar:She ticked you off?
Digvijaya Singh: She did tell me, she did tick me off and I went and apologised to Chidambaram ji. I have gone public on that its nothing new.
Karan Thapar: Other than occasion, actually you have revealed it for the first time now. But other than that occasion Sonia Gandhi has never ticked you off/ She's never told you to speak less?
Digvijaya Singh: No
Karan Thapar: She's never objected to anything you've said?
Digvijaya Singh: No
Karan Thapar: Digvijaya Singh, a pleasure talking to you.
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