Devil's Advocate: Jyotiraditya on political young guns

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New Delhi: Congress MP Jyotiraditya Scindia has no qualms for not being given a post, despite his much touted qualifications, calibre and acumen as a politician. Sixty years after the Indian independence, is Indian politics doing enough to encourage young politicians? How is it tackling the issue of dynasty? Those were the two issues raised with the Jyotiraditya Scindia on Devil's Advocate.

Karan Thapar: Mr Scindia, you are most intelligent and most talented MPs in your party. Why aren’t you a minister?

Jyotiraditya Scindia: This question has often been asked before. And I think it’s very important at any stage to look at one’s experience as well. There is no doubt that raw energy, aspirational value and the urge to go forward is there in youth. But at the same time there is need for us to get experience as well.

Karan Thapar: You talk of experience as if it’s something you don’t have, and yet there are these first-time MPs like Anbumani Ramdoss, Dayanidhi Maran who are already Cabinet ministers.

Others like Jairam Ramesh, Radhia Selvi, Purandeswari and Ajay Maken are Ministers of State. And even some of those who crossed over to the Congress from other parties, like Renuka Chaudhry have independent charge. Why not you? Given the fact that you have been a two-time MP.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Like I said, one must look at the wealth of experience. All the names that you have taken, a lot of them have been in the Parliament for a long period of time. Personally, for me, what’s important is the driving force, which is that of public service and not necessarily one of personal ambition.

Karan Thapar: But it’s not just you. Everyone out of the young intake of Congress MPs has not been made a minister. Look at the list – Sachin Pilot, Milind Deora, Jiten Prasad, Sandeep Dikshit, Naveen Jindal, Deependra Singh Hooda. None of them were given a post.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Never mind that. We have time on our side.

Karan Thapar: But the nation doesn’t have that time. India needs talent today.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: I think we do have a very talented Cabinet. You look at the composition of the Cabinet where on one side you have Chidambaram ji, Pranab Mukherjee, Shivraj Patil ji, Kamal Nath ji and Dayanidhi Maran, who was also a part of the Cabinet. So across the board you have a tremendous skill set that’s in place.

Karan Thapar: You know what they say? The reason why Jyotiraditya Scindia, Sachin Pilot, Milind Deora can’t be ministers, is because of Rahul Gandhi. They belong to his generation and hence can’t be heir apparent. And because he is not fit to be a minister, you can’t be considered either.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: I think nothing could further from the truth. And I honestly do think that at this point of time, we do require a certain degree of experience. And I am sure once we garner that, we will also progress.

Karan Thapar: Rajiv Gandhi became a prime minister without any experience. In fact he had never been a minister. He had barely been an MP for three-years. It wasn’t considered a liability in his case. Jyotiraditya Scindia has been an MP for five years, he has two degrees, he is one of the best speakers in Parliament, your party relies on you to stand and defend it in a crisis. Yet it isn’t making you a minister.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: As I said in a lot of ways, at the risk of repeating myself, there is a time for everything. And this point of time we need to gather a lot of experience.

Karan Thapar: You are really telling me that the fact that you might pip the heir apparent is not a consideration.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: I can say that with a guarantee that that is the furthest from the truth as far as the Congress party is concerned. And as far as the party and its set-up is concerned, there will come a time when all of us have gathered experience, there will be a platform.

Karan Thapar: Let’s put Rahul Gandhi aside and accept that he is not the reason that young MPs like yourself have not become ministers. Lets look instead at the explanations Sonia Gandhi has given. This is what she said last year in October – “The number of places is restricted. So even if I would like to do so, circumstances do not permit me to do so.” Is that a serious explanation, or forgive me, a silly excuse?

Jyotiraditya Scindia: I think that is part of the explanation. I think it’s a combination of both. On one hand we do require to gain a certain degree of experience, on the other hand it is one of the pulls and stresses that one has to deal with when you are running a coalition government. And that is one of the issues that the party is faced with as well.

Karan Thapar: She says she doesn’t have room in the government to make first-time MPs ministers. You have 79 ministers including the Prime Minister. And she doesn’t have room to give young talent a chance?

Jyotiraditya Scindia: That’s the whole composition of the Cabinet. Of that there is only a certain per cent that lies with the Congress.

Karan Thapar: If you look at only the Congress element of that Cabinet, Arjun Singh at 77 years, Antulay (Abdul Rehman) at 78 years, Sis Ram Ola at 80 years. They are in Cabinet rather than, forgive me, in retirement homes. People like you with talent are not.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: If you look at the composition of this Cabinet, the average age of this Cabinet has fallen by almost five to six years compared to the last Cabinet. The average age of this Cabinet, if I may correct you, is actually 62 years.

Karan Thapar: It’s 65 years.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: It’s 62.

Karan Thapar: It’s 65. And if you want to compare it to average ages, it’s 49 in England.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: But irrespective, the average age of the earlier Cabinet preceded this one. The average age of the NDA Cabinet was 67.

Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. The reason why you are not there is not just because of the Rahul Gandhi bottleneck, but because Congress in its heart is not convinced that promoting young talent and promoting young MPs to ministership is the right thing to do. In contrast look at Britain. The Culture Secretary is 37 years old; the Foreign Minister is 42 years old and the Home Minister is 45 years old.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Also look at India during Rajiv (Gandhi) ji’s time. There was this young team, which also came to the fore. The age of that young team was also between 40 to 45 years.

Karan Thapar: Absolutely. Why is not happening today? Only because of Rahul Gandhi.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: No that’s not the case. At the risk of repeating myself, let me say it once again – all of us are in the age between 3o to 35 years. I am 36 years old. And there will come a time when we have gathered enough experience.

Karan Thapar: You are putting so much stress on experience as if it was quality that was unavoidable. Let me quote to you again the comparison with Britain.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: You cannot compare Britain and India.

Karan Thapar: I think you can because the challenge of bringing young people to the fore is the same.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: I beg to disagree.

Karan Thapar: Let me finish my point and then you can disagree. Look at the British Cabinet appointed by Gordon Brown. There are eight Cabinet ministers under the age of 45, only one over 60, who is just 61. In contrast you have 16 ministers in India over 60, 10 over 70, one over 80.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: In a way it is also fortuitous because that at the same time you have a huge wealth of experience that a lot of these people bring to the table. Let me make the point once again that it is very important for all of us to get experience at the grassroots level. India is a much more complex country than the UK. And it is very important to understand both developmental and political complexities at the grassroots level,

Karan Thapar: You are very good at making excuses for it. Are you telling me that a man is his 70s has the aptitude, temperament, leave aside the stamina, vision and determination to tackle those complex problems?

Jyotiraditya Scindia: I think it’s wrong to make generalisations like that. You will find many people in their 70s who are extremely capable of that as well, as you will find many people at a very young age who are incapable of that.

Karan Thapar: Mr Scindia, 62 per cent of India is under the age of 30. You have a Cabinet, which is of average age of 65. What is the connection that they can have with this country?

Jyotiraditya Scindia: I think you have raised an important point. And the important thing to see is really the trend. As long as the trend line is falling in terms of age level, I think it is very heartening.

Karan Thapar: So you can hope to be a Minister of State at 58 and a Cabinet minister at 65. Is that what you are trying to say?

Jyotiraditya Scindia: I wouldn’t put those numbers of it.

Karan Thapar: Well, those are the numbers that emerge from the trend.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: I wouldn’t put those numbers of it. But as long as it is a declining trend and the average age is falling, I think it is a very healthy trend for India.

Karan Thapar: Sixty years after Independence, the Congress party which gave us independence today lacks the vision and confidence to put its faith in the young and the future. Instead you are harking on old age.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: You argument is not on a sound ground, if I may be allowed to say that, because if that were the case, the Congress party would not be giving tickets to so many young individuals.

Karan Thapar: They get it because of their fathers and not because of their experience.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Let me finish. Not only here, because you and I only look at the Lok Sabha elections, but I have toured a number of states during the Assembly elections and I saw that across the board in state, panchayat and grassroots level elections, the youth of the country is coming to the fore. And heartingly so even in the area of politics.

Karan Thapar: You are saying that even though the young are not getting promotion to ministerial rank under Congress, they are being brought into the Parliament and the Vidhan Sabha.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: It’s very important to understand the motivational factors behind that.

Karan Thapar: Lets turn to the second problem that afflicts Indian politics. Are you embarrassed by the fact that the world’s largest democracy has a 120 political dynasty where sons and daughters are promoted simply because of their fathers and mothers?

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Absolutely not. Karan, for God’s sake, we are living in the world’s largest democracy. We have a 100 crore population, 60 crore active voters. And at the end of the day the test of your ability and evidence of public service lies in the electoral process.

Karan Thapar: You have made my point for me. A 100 crore population and we can only find sons and daughters to promote because of fathers and mothers?

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Sure. The first time around you may have an advantage.

Karan Thapar: It is a huge advantage.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Let me finish. You may have advantage and opportunity, but that only lasts the first time around. There is no sustainable first-mover advantage in politics in India. And if you look at the evidence, through successive Lok Sabha elections, close to 65 per cent of incumbent Lok Sabha MPs have not been voted back into power. So therefore after your first time around, the next time around you will be voted in or you will be voted out based on your relationship with the people.

Karan Thapar: The first time around gives you an advantage that is inestimable. Rajiv Gandhi became an MP and then a Prime Minister because he was Indira’s (Gandhi) son. Rahul became an MP because he was Sonia’s (Gandhi) son. You, Sachin Pilot, Milind Deora, Jiten Prasad became MPs because you were your father’s sons. Is it fitting that a political career should depend upon parentage and birth rather than merit and talent?

Jyotiraditya Scindia: It does not depend on parentage and birth.

Karan Thapar That is the only reason why you became an MP to start with.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: At the end of the day you are living in the world’s largest democracy. You are not foisted upon the people through any means whatsoever. You participate in the election just as any other candidate does.

Karan Thapar: You are missing the point.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: No I’m not missing the point. You are elected by the people so therefore if you are not capable of serving the people, that decision will be taken by the people the next time around.

Karan Thapar: I am not talking about the election, I am talking about the party choosing you as candidate. A person without connection, without family contact trying to be a Congress candidate would take decades to be one. If you, Sachin Pilot, Milind Deora, Jiten Prasad walked in because of your fathers, is it fitting that in a democracy birth should give you an advantage others don’t have?

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Any individual in this country is able and free to fight an election.

Karan Thapar: But we are not talking about fighting an election. We are talking about becoming a candidate of a party. You became a candidate because of your connection.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: In any case, you are chosen by the people of India, by the people of your constituency.

Karan Thapar: But not to become a candidate. You are chosen by the party and the party chose you out of loyalty to a person, to a father.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: But if you are a winnable candidate, why should the party not give you a chance?

Karan Thapar: You are not necessarily a winnable candidate at that point.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Why not? Because people make that decision and not you or the party.

Karan Thapar: You are again mixing it up.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: I’m not mixing it up. At the end of the day you are living in the world’s largest democracy. You are as keenly contesting the poll as any other candidate. And if you don’t perform, you will be out the second time around.

Karan Thapar: The point that you are missing out is on becoming a candidate.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Is that a crime?

Karan Thapar: Yes.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Why is it a crime?

Karan Thapar: It is nepotism.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: It’s not. Because if at the end of the day if you are not bale to serve the people, you do not perform, you will be out. Sixty five per cent of the MPs are out the second time.

Karan Thapar: That’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about how you get in.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Does that mean that you will never get out.

Karan Thapar: No. But we are not talking about leaving.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Are you then questioning the robustness of the electoral process in this country?

Karan Thapar: No. I am questioning the robustness of the party process.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Are you questioning the democratic process of this country?

Karan Thapar: Yes. I am questioning the democratic process of the parties. Candidates stand as members of a party. They stand as representatives of the party. And to become a representative, you get an unfair advantage because you are someone’s son. That’s the point I’m making.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Let us assume what you are saying is correct. But at the end of the day, are you questioning the ability of the people of India in their robustness of the electoral process?

Karan Thapar: I am questioning the democratic functioning of parties.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: At the end of the day, whether it be the BSP, BJP, Congress, whichever candidate they put up on the podium, there is a plethora of close to 15 candidates per Parliamentary constituency. Are you then questioning the robustness of the ability of the people of India of choosing their able representatives?

Karan Thapar: You are very clever. You are deliberately confusing the issue. I am not talking about the election. I’m talking about the democratic functioning of the parties. Parties chose candidates on the basis of whose son they are. That is unfair. That is nepotism.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: The job of any political party is to chose to candidate based on his winability.

Karan Thapar: Is winability only assured by the fact that you are Madhavrao Scindia’s son?

Jyotiraditya Scindia: No. At the end of the day, the party must chose its candidate on the ability of the candidate to win.

Karan Thapar: Milind Deora, Jiten Prasad, Sachin Pilot weren’t necessarily winnable candidates. Congress giving them a seat made them winnable. They weren’t winnable before that.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: It is very wrong of you to have cast aspersions on people who have actually won through a robust, hectic political process.

Karan Thapar: I’m not casting a aspersion on political process, but on the party. I’m casting an aspersion on family exploiting linkages.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: You are also casting an aspersion on them by saying that they were not winnable candidates. You may not feel so. But the people in their party definitely feel so. That’s why they won.

Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. Sixty years after Independence, would Mahatma Gandhi be proud of the fact that his Congress party today is sponsoring political dynasties?

Jyotiraditya Scindia: I don’t think any party is sponsoring political dynasties. At the end of the day if you go through an electoral process and you do come out because people repose their faith in you, that is the robustness of Indian democracy.

Karan Thapar: No I am afraid. I have to disagree.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Absolutely. Let me be very candid. Which country doesn’t have it? It’s the Clintons, Bushs in America and our neighbours in Sri Lanka and Pakistan. The only point that I am making is that you have to believe in democracy. Karan and I urge you. Please believe in the electoral process of this country. I am a firm believer of that and I hope you are too.

Karan Thapar: The only reason you are not allowing me to talk is because essentially you know you are embarrassed by the fact that your party is choosing people on nepotisticcal principles.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Absolutely not.

Karan Thapar: This represents not the fulfillment of Gandhi’s vision for India, but it’s distortion and denial.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Absolutely not. This argument cannot be contested in a drawing room debate like this. It will be contested on the dusty roads of electoral India. And that will determine the results.

Karan Thapar: It will first be contested in the behind doors offices of Congress party behaving nepotistically. Jyotiraditya Scindia, it was a pleasure talking to you.

Jyotiraditya Scindia: Pleasure talking to you too.