'Zardari's words must be followed by action'

How should we assess Pakistan’s response to Mumbai terror strikes? That’s the big issue Karan Thapar explored with External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee.

Karan Thapar: Let’s start with the responses from Pakistan so far. Reports say that Lashkar-e-Toiba offices have been raided and Jamaat-ud-Dawa offices sealed. Newspapers claim that at least 70 people have either been arrested or detained including Masood Azhar, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, Zakhiur Rahman Lakhvi and they say that the action is continuing. Does this begin to look like a meaningful first step?

Pranab Mukherjee:: Let’s wait to see whether these actions are taken to their logical conclusion. You know what happened after the attack on Parliament in 2001. Almost similar type of actions were taken at the initial stage when international pressure was mounting on but after that it was let up. Therefore, we’ll have to wait and see whether they are taken to the logical conclusion.

As far as the Jamaat-ud-Dawa is concerned, now I understand that the Security Council committee has declared it as an outfit of the banned Lashkar e-Toiba.

The response, which we have received through the media of course—there is no official communication from Pakistan to us that foreign minister and other Pakistan authorities reacted that they will fulfil the obligations as per the international requirement.

Karan Thapar: Are you now waiting to see that they keep that word?

Pranab Mukherjee: I am not waiting only for that. I am waiting to see whether the steps are pursued seriously and that they are followed up to the logical conclusion. The infrastructure facilities available there for the terrorists are totally dismantled, and the outlawed or the banned organisations do not reappear with a new name.

Karan Thapar: I understand that but I also noticed that Admiral Mullen, the American Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has described the steps Pakistan has taken as very positive. He’s called them great steps. Now today, you met American Deputy secretary of State Negroponte. What impression did he give you about America? Do they say Pakistan has taken effective steps? Or are they prepared to wait like you for full measures to happen?

Pranab Mukherjee: He gave us his perception and we gave him our perception. We clearly pointed out that we would like to see that these steps are taken to their logical conclusion. Words must be followed by action.

Karan Thapar: Now Pakistan has proposed a high-level political delegation which they want to send to India and this is different from their original idea of a joint commission. How do you respond to that?

Pranab Mukherjee: I would like to have the official communication first, because the first sentence responds to my demands. In the first sentence itself, it is stated that various aspects, what would be the composition, the nature, what would be the task, I don’t know anything. I must know what is this high level delegation which will come. What is the purpose?

Karan Thapar: So this has not been officially communicated to India. It has only been mentioned through press by Pakistan?

Pranab Mukherjee: In their response they have said that they would like to send it but they have not said.

Karan Thapar: One of the proposals that Pakistan had made earlier, which your government has indicated you are not impressed by, is their suggestion of a joint investigation mechanism under a joint commission headed by the two NSAs (National Security Advisors) to look at the evidence.

Why is it not a step forward?

Pranab Mukherjee: Because from our past experience we have seen various mechanisms are in place. Take the case of joint anti-terror mechanism. What was the purpose of joint anti-terror mechanism? To share information, intelligence and thereafter to follow it up. In four meetings, which have taken place since its establishment, it has yielded no result. (There is) exchange of views and thereafter it is not followed up.

Karan Thapar: Your experience leads you to believe that the investigative mechanism they are suggesting would be useless?

Pranab Mukherjee: I am not coming to any conclusion but we think that whatever they committed, whatever they are to do let them do it first.

Karan Thapar: The Pakistan Foreign Minister, Shah Mehmood Qureshi, went on TV to say that the steps they have taken so far are on the basis of investigations they have done on their own but now they need evidence from India to go further. Do you think evidence from India can be made available since he is publicly asking for it?

Pranab Mukherjee: We can make (available) whatever evidence we have, but in this case we are also investigating. We have not come to the conclusions. Therefore, at this juncture, perhaps it would be premature to share the evidence.

Karan Thapar: But at the right time you are prepared to do so?

Pranab Mukherjee: We have shared the evidence—in the past. The point is that it has not been followed up and it has not been taken to its logical conclusion.

Karan Thapar: In the past they have not taken it further. You are also saying that when you reach your conclusions you will be prepared to share your evidence this time around?

Pranab Mukherjee: Surely we would like to share it with them.

Karan Thapar: The Pakistan ambassador at the UN has gone public on TV to say they would like access to the terrorist in India’s custody, Ajmal Kasab, so that they can be satisfied that he is genuinely a Pakistani.

Pranab Mukherjee: I don’t think I have received any formal communication from the Pakistani embassy.

Karan Thapar: So once again they are communicating through the media, not doing it officially.

Pranab Mukherjee:: I do not know. At least to my knowledge it (request for access to Kasab) has not reached me. I don’t know if it has reached the lower level.

Karan Thapar: Is this is something which could be possible?

Pranab Mukherjee:: How can I say it right now? Are they claiming that this man is a Pakistani citizen? I do not know.

Karan Thapar: In fact their newspaper, ‘The Dawn, has done an interview with Ajmal Kasab’s father, who has recognised the picture and accepted it is his son.

Pranab Mukherjee: Everything is appearing in the media, but the fact of the matter is that there is a way of communication between two governments.

Karan Thapar: And that is not happening.

Pranab Mukherjee: Up to now that has not happened.

Karan Thapar: From everything you know about what happened in Mumbai do you believe this primarily the work of non-state actors or is there truth to a report out by PTI late last week that the government has evidence that ISI was officially involved in it.

Pranab Mukherjee:: I am not interested in having trial by media. These are the areas of investigation. After investigation it goes to the courts. Due process of law and procedure established by law should follow. Therefore, I am not in a position to share any of this information. It is for the media inquisitiveness people may be interested in it, but being in the government I am not interested in it.

Second point which I would like to suggest (is) non-state actors are not coming from heaven as I said in Parliament. They do not come from a different planet—they live and function from within the territory of a particular country.

Karan Thapar: In this case Pakistan.

Pranab Mukherjee: In this case Pakistan. That is why I repeatedly said that elements from Pakistan—that is the phrase I have used meticulously.

Karan Thapar: And that is the phrase you would prefer to use at the moment; you don’t want to be more specific.

Pranab Mukherjee: I would not like to be more specific unless the definitive conclusion is arrived by the investigating agencies and they prosecute the person—there is a legal system in our country and they will take care of it.

Till then we will have to keep whatever information we have, for the interest of the prosecution and fair trial.

Karan Thapar: Let us come to the demarche you have served to the Pakistan government. There has been lot of speculation about it in the press. Am I right in saying the truth is you have given Pakistan three or four names but you have not specifically asked for extradition.

What you have asked for is that you would like them to take action and you are happy if that action happens without ascribing it to India. Am I correct in characterising it like that?

Pranab Mukherjee: No. What I have told them is that there are two categories of people involved. Some people who have committed crimes in India and they have left India and taken shelter in Pakistan, like Dawood Ibrahim. We are asking Pakistani authorities to hand them over to Indian authorities, so that they can be tried as per Indian laws here.

There are persons who are Pakistani citizens (and) are indulging in terrorist activities. Let them arrest, let them be tried as per Pakistani law. One person I am particularly mentioning is Masood Azhar (leader of militant group Jaish-e-Mohammad). He was in Indian custody and we had to hand him over to hijackers (of Indian Airlines flight IC-814) in Kandahar. He is available in Pakistan.

More than often he appears on TV screens in Pakistan. I do not understand what difficulty Pakistan government has (in handing him over to India). Pakistan government didn’t demand his return—hijackers demanded that we would release the passengers if you hand over the man. So why Pakistan government cannot hand over that man to us and what is the point of keeping him in house arrest?

Karan Thapar: This is in a way a critical test of their sincerity and their genuine cooperation.

Pranab Mukherjee:: I am not sitting in value judgment. I am telling them twice at the highest level you have given assurances that Pakistan’s territory will not be allowed to be used by the terrorists to carry on activities against India. Please dismantle (terrorist infrastructure) and please prove that it is not being used.

Karan Thapar: In these circumstances, as Foreign Minister, would it be proper and fitting for the Indian cricket team’s tour of Pakistan to go ahead or do you think it should be reconsidered?

Pranab Mukherjee: Don’t mix politics with cricket. I don’t think conducive atmosphere prevails right now, but the authorities are different. Taking into account all circumstances they will decide.

Karan Thapar: But as you say don’t mix politics with cricket.

Pranab Mukherjee:: Yeah.

Karan Thapar: How do you respond to Asif Ali Zardari’s article in the ‘New York Times’? Do you see it as an expression of political sentiments that are genuine and warm?

Pranab Mukherjee: The article speaks of the agony of a person who himself is the victim of terrorists. Therefore, everybody who has read that article will have sympathy and be in agreement with him. Therefore, this is not a case of persons or individuals. The question is when you discharge some public function, how are you discharging that public function is important. What role is he paying as President of Pakistan to fulfill the commitment he made to our Prime Minister is important here.

Karan Thapar: His words may be reassuring but they must be matched by proper action.

Pranab Mukherjee:: Proper action—words must be followed by proper action.

Karan Thapar: So when Asif Zardari writes in his article that reconciliation and rapprochement is the best revenge against the dark forces that are trying to provoke a confrontation between Pakistan and India, you say as a sentiment that is fine but if you don’t have action, then it doesn’t work.

Pranab Mukherjee:: It will remain merely as sentiments. It will produce nothing.

Karan Thapar: At this moment Zardari has to prove he means what he says; he means what he writes.

Pranab Mukherjee: Not only that. It is not the question of individuals—it is the question of the holder of high constitutional executive office.

Karan Thapar: Does he, as you analyse his position, actually have power to do and implement what he says or is he checked by the army and the ISI?

Pranab Mukherjee:: How can I comment on the internal mechanism of Pakistan?

It is not for me; it is for the authorities of Pakistan and people of Pakistan to decide who will function as per their own Constitution. I am not to sit on judgment on that.

Karan Thapar: Congress spokesman and general secretary Veerappa Moily said to a TV channel about a week ago that if Pakistan does not shut down terrorist camps, India will step in and act on its own. Is that your government’s position or is that just a statement?

Pranab Mukherjee: I have already stated the government’s position which is that every sovereign government would like to take all steps necessary to protect its citizens and to protect the territorial integrity of the country. As far as Congress spokesperson, Veerappa Moily observations are concerned it is the reflection of the sense of outrage and sense of anger Indians are having of this attack on Mumbai by terrorist elements from Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: On Thursday in the Parliament, I believe in response to a question that was asked, you ruled out the option of war. But Yashwant Sinha, one of your predecessors, went public that night and said that India must not rule out the military option.

Pranab Mukherjee: Every individual is entitled to hold his or her views. I cannot gag Mr Yashwant Sinha or anybody else. What I can say and what I believe is the position of the government of India is that war is not the solution to the problem.

Karan Thapar: In which case, how much time are you prepared to give Pakistan before you come to the conclusion that they simply are not taking effective action?

Pranab Mukherjee: It depends on how fast and how quickly Pakistan responds. Or whether they respond at all or not. Therefore, it is not possible for me to indicate any timeframe right now.

Karan Thapar: Are you worried that at the moment, anger and passion in India is at a high pitch and maybe people will become impatient if you give Pakistan too much time and yet if you don’t give Pakistan enough time to act, there is pressure on you internationally. In a sense you seem to be caught in between.

Pranab Mukherjee: There is no question of being caught in between. There is a question of getting things done the way one should feel it should be done. We have demanded certain things from Pakistan. We hope and expect that the new dispensation—which has come in Pakistan through the democratic process with the restoration of democratic restoration there—they would fulfill their commitment. That is our hope and expectation. Though we know from our past experiences that these assurances are observed by breach more than by compliance.

Karan Thapar: A lot of your hopes and expectations centre around the new civilian regime and Asif Ali Zardari has only been president for less than three months. Are you a little perturbed by this hoax call controversy that the system in Pakistan and perhaps the president himself were a little gullible and got taken in by a hoax call.

Pranab Mukherjee:I am little concerned about the type of hysteria which was developed as a result of this hoax call. If the government is guided or to take certain actions on receiving a hoax call, then surely there is a matter of concern for everybody. But actual position as I explained earlier, there was no question of me calling the president of another country.

Normal diplomatic courtesy demands that the President should be talked to by the prime minister, and I can have conversation with my counterpart. I actually had (conversation) with Pakistan foreign minister Mr Qureshi but that was not in Islamabad. He was very much there in Delhi at that point of time, on November 28 evening. And every word of it is recorded as per the system. No question of calling to president Zardari. Why should I call him?

Karan Thapar: Pakistan has multiple centres of power and no one is sure who is the absolute authority. There is the army, there is the civilian government, there is the ISI, how difficult is to deal with a country where you are not quite sure where power rise.

Pranab Mukherjee: It may be difficult but we have no option. I cannot change the internal mechanism of functioning in Pakistan. That is for the Pakistani authorities and rulers to decide.

Karan Thapar: Mr Mukherjee, a pleasure talking to you on Devil’s Advocate.

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